Carme Forcadell: "I am not going to Madrid nor will I return to Spain, I have many bad memories of it"

BarcelonaCarme Forcadell i Lluís (Xerta, 1955) presided over the Assemblea Nacional Catalana from 2012 to 2015, and the Parliament of Catalonia from 2015 to 2018. Interviewing after so many years someone who has held relevant positions during such a turbulent period for the country allows for a freer and more insightful review of collective adventures and personal experiences, such as the 39 months she spent in prison. Forcadell does not forgive those who belittled her or those who imprisoned her, she does not travel to Spain, and she does not rule out, if circumstances of unity and determination arise, returning to the forefront one day.

This week it has been eight years since you went to prison. Does it feel like yesterday or like another life?

— Look, it depends. I always say: next year I won't think about it anymore and I always end up thinking about it. There are moments when it doesn't seem like another life, when it seems like yesterday. I suppose like everyone who has had to go through a difficult stage.

Is this the worst thing that has ever happened to you?

— Yes. My father died, in 2006, with Alzheimer's. That was very serious.

But with the death of a father, if things go as they should, you can count on it. With prison, no.

— I had never thought I would go to jail. You might think you'll go to the hospital, that maybe when you retire you'll study again, but never to jail. When they send you there, it's a very hard blow. You don't know it and everything that is unknown is scary.

It has been five years since you left prison. In this time, have you been able to forgive someone you thought you would never forgive? For example: have you forgiven those who imprisoned you?

— Forgiven? No. No, no, no. The Supreme Court put me in prison, and they would love it if we were still in prison. They let us out because they had no choice, but if they could have, we would still be there. The proof is that, for their part, which is to apply the amnesty law, they are not applying it. I could forgive a person who has wronged me if I see that they repent, that they change. But that is not the case.

What would happen if you met Manuel Marchena, the president of the court that tried you?

— I don’t think I’ll find him, because I’m not going to Madrid –lest they get stuck with me again– and I don’t think he’ll come to Catalonia.

Is this joke that you are not going to Madrid or is it for real?

— It's real.

Only in Madrid or anywhere in Spain?

— I go to Catalan Countries and the Basque Country. I don't go to Spain. When we were in Madrid, we had a very bad time. People shouted at us, insulted us. When we went out with those Civil Guard vans, at full speed, people looked at us badly. If we stopped, they would tap on the window. I have bad memories, you know what I mean? So, I have no need to go there. Man, if I had a friend in Cáceres who was very ill and asked me to...

But, if everything goes as it should, won't you return to Spain?

— No.

This week you tweeted remembering the eighth anniversary of your entry into prison. Reading the responses hurt me. Many people do not forgive you for backing down. How do you feel about it?

— I post a tweet and I never look at the replies. It's not new, it's from many years ago. But I understand people, because I also thought, that we had it within reach.

The price you have paid is very high. In your case, three years in prison.

— Yes, 39 months, I have it recorded. But people felt very sad and very disappointed. There are things that were done well and things that were done badly. And every time I think about it, I see that what we were going to do is very difficult. Perhaps we sinned by being naive, by thinking it would be very easy. I can assure you that we did everything we could and more. And if we didn't do more, it was because we couldn't, and because we were afraid, because we were the underdogs. And I'll tell you something else: these people say it on Twitter, but they never say anything to your face. I have never met anyone, anyone, Albert, anyone, not on the street or anywhere else, who has ever said anything to me. On Twitter, everyone is very brave.

Where is Ithaca, now?

— Ithaca is in the same place it was, what happens is that it costs us more to get there. It seemed that the island was a little further than Mallorca and it turns out that no, that it is next to Turkey.

Do you think you will see the independence of Catalonia?

— Home, I would like it.

It's not the question, if you would like.

— Sometimes I am optimistic and say yes. History, at times, makes leaps and accelerates. I always explain that on July 10, 2010, we took to the streets to defend the Statute and seven years later we voted for independence. If these circumstances arise again, it could be. I don't see it as impossible. The Berlin Wall fell, but three days before, no one knew it.

Now you are in the third or fourth row of public exhibition. Is this because you came out of it chastened or because it's someone else's turn?

— I think it's time for others now. I have been in politics all my life and only lived off institutional politics when I was president of the Parliament. I continue to be in many entities, but I am not on the front line nor doing institutional politics.

This will not happen again?

— If it goes for independence, and it does, I'll consider it. But it has to be done. For now, no.

I thought the “no” would be more radical.

— Do you know what happened? I also said I wouldn't run in an election in 2015, and I did. I was president of the Assemblea Nacional Catalana...

Yes, man: “President, put out the ballot boxes!”.

— Exactly, this sentence will haunt me my whole life.

And another one I remember perfectly: “Mr. Carrizosa...

— “...why is she asking me for the floor?”. This one will also haunt me.

Speaking of Mr. Carrizosa, and not just him: what did you learn from those who did not think like you during that period of the Process?

— Look, there were people in Ciutadans who were very good people. It is also true that they were removed very quickly.

Do you mean you couldn't be from Ciutadans and a good person?

— It depends on what you mean by a good person. I'm not saying you should do charity work, be a good citizen, a good mother, a good colleague... But everything they did to us, everything they did in this country, everything they did to the Catalan language... Before Ciutadans entered, in the Parliament of Catalonia, everyone spoke Catalan. They were born to destroy teaching in Catalan and the language. It is in this sense that they are not good people.

Beyond Ciutadans, from the parties that did not want independence, did you learn something, did you better understand the complexity and diversity of this country?

— Yes, obviously. Within the socialists and within the commons, there were people who perhaps were not independentists, but who did defend the right to self-determination. I believe that we can reach an understanding with these people.

¿Did you come politicized from Xerta or was it when you arrived at university?

— I think I became politicized because of the language. I came from a village where everyone spoke Catalan. It was curious because the teacher, inside the classroom, spoke to you in Spanish, and in the playground, in Catalan.

It is quite the opposite of what is happening now.

— Exactly. And when I arrived at university, I didn't understand that many students didn't speak Catalan. They could speak it, but they didn't speak it. It was like an indifference they had towards the language. They defended whales, they were from Greenpeace, all ecologists, but Catalan, nothing at all.

What family did you come from?

— No, no, peasants. Not at all politicized. Only from time to time my grandmother, who had lost a son in the war, would shout or blurt something out, but in general, politics were not discussed.

Is the mother alive?

— Yes, he is 97 years old. And I have two grandsons, too. One was born when I was in prison, in September 2019.

Were you able to go see him?

— The Supreme Court gave me two hours of leave to go to the hospital.

Are you better as a grandmother or as a daughter?

— I don't know, maybe as a grandmother, because my mother is in the village and my grandchildren are here. Therefore, I see my grandchildren more than my mother. I try to go there as much as I can, though.

I wanted to ask you if the 70 years you turned last year were an impact, but, well, with a 97-year-old mother...

— I, since I was 40, I haven't had birthdays. 40 impacted me a lot and I decided that's where I'd stay, that I wouldn't turn any more.

What would you like to happen now?

— Home, I would like the independence of Catalonia, you don't need to ask me. Personally, I am going through a period in my life now that I am very well. I am not on the front line, I am not suffering, because I have suffered a lot in recent years. Now, therefore, I am calm, I do what I want, I am in many organizations, but all things that I like. What would I like? That they give amnesty.

What legal situation do you have now?

— Since I am not convicted of embezzlement, like those who were in the Government, I do not have the disqualification to hold public office. I could run in an election, but I could not work. I was a civil servant in the Department of Education and I could not do it because I have a criminal record.

You spoke of these years of suffering: what was the moment you suffered the most?

— When my eldest grandson, who at that time was a year and a half old, had to be operated on because he had swallowed a pistachio nut and was choking. I was in prison, hysterical. I had a horrible night. And the other moment is when a cellmate committed suicide in front of my cell.

Didn't you suffer being president of the Parliament?

— I suffered a lot, but it was bearable. I already expected it wouldn't be a walk in the park.

Do you think you were ever disrespected?

— Yes, I think so. And much more because she was a woman. I was disrespected in the hemicycle, but also in the spokespersons' room, in the committee meetings.

In what sense?

— Because they raised their voices, shouted, looked at me with disdain: “What do you know?”. And the worst thing is that no colleague said anything. That hurt me even more. There was no one who said “you are going too far”.

Neither yours nor theirs?

— From anyone. From nobody. I don't know if there came a point where they already considered it normal.

Who has been the best president of the Parliament?

— I don't know. I think President Rull is doing well now.

And the best president of the Generalitat you have known?

— Complicated, huh. You're asking me a complicated question. I think President Pujol was a very good president in the early years. It's just that the others have been there for a very short time. President Aragonès, President Quim Torra, President Puigdemont, President Artur Mas was there a bit longer... But at the beginning, President Pujol laid the foundations for Catalanism, for education, for TV3...

The actor Sergi López said the other day that October 1st was very big, very emotional, and that it is the seed of something that can grow again.

— Yes, I totally agree. At the beginning of the Assembly, we all shook hands and didn't ask ourselves what you think, what the other thinks, we all fought for the same thing. Now we have reached a point where if you don't think exactly like me, you are a collaborator, you are a traitor. This cannot be, we will not get out of this like this. We must redirect the situation, we must mend the country. The country is broken. If we were able to do October 1st, which is very big, we must value it and we must prepare ourselves again for a similar situation. But to do this we must go together. And be clear that no one will help us. I remember they used to say 'the European Union will not allow it'. The European Union allows everything. Even if you don't think like me, we cannot be insulting each other.

What is the image that comes to mind of maximum emotion from all that time?

— On September 11, 2013, when I am informed that the Catalan Way has been a success and we have filled the entire country. That day I cried.