Pilar Sorribas: "There is more corruption in Spain than would be expected given the level of democracy."

Pilar Sorribas is a professor in the Department of Economics at the UB and a researcher at the IEB, the Barcelona Institute of Economics.

Is Spain very corrupt?

— These are illegal behaviors; there are no official statistics.

But indicators, right?

— Perception barometers and indicators based on expert opinions. The most common is Transparency International.

And what do they say?

— We are in sixteenth place within the European Union. There are more countries with lower levels of corruption than Spain than countries with higher levels.

How is it measured?

— The design and quality of institutions is very important. One of the keys is the judicial system, because an efficient and independent system makes it more likely to detect and punish cases. Also important is free media and democratic quality, that is, elections and electoral competition between parties.

And how is Spain doing if we look at these elements?

— It has a higher level of corruption than it should. This is because corruption is contingent.

As?

— The likelihood of being corrupt depends on how you anticipate others will behave and what the penalty will be if you get caught. Economic penalties, but also moral ones.

So we have more corruption than we should because people perceive that if they get caught, nothing will happen to them.

— Exactly, which is why Spain is also resistant to reforms, because beyond a regulatory change, you must perceive that there will be consequences. However, I must say that in the case of politicians, there are penalties, although not always as great as they should be. But the penalty is directly related to media coverage. The greater the coverage, the greater the penalty.

Is there a difference between parties?

— It depends on affinity here. There's more tolerance for corruption when there's political affinity.

Barometers indicate that the perception is that there is a lot of corruption.

— Well above average. 88 percent of the population believes corruption is widespread.

How is it explained?

— One factor may be trust in politicians: there's a significant crisis here. But it's astonishing that when asked if they know of any cases, more than 80% say no. This may be because there's a type of corruption—political corruption—that only occurs at the highest levels of society. And other things, like not paying VAT, aren't perceived as corruption, even though they are.

Could corruption in Spain also be explained as a legacy of the dictatorship?

— Political corruption has been concentrated in highly regulated sectors. This may be a byproduct of the dictatorship, as it has led to a concentration of power in a few hands, which facilitates corruption. In any case, corruption always occurs where there is a profit margin.

Is that why the focus here is on construction?

— Yes, because with a change in regulation you can obtain a very large benefit.

How to stop corruption?

— Making it have consequences. An efficient judicial system that detects it, a high penalty. And, very importantly, preventative measures like education. Have you seen the latest barometer from the Anti-Fraud Office?

No.

— For the first time, young people are more tolerant of corruption. And various behaviors—such as not paying taxes or skipping hospital checks—are not perceived as corruption.

Are there differences between Spain and Catalonia?

— There is no comparable data. If we look at cases of urban planning corruption, Catalonia is slightly above the Spanish average. This may be due to the fact that housing demand in Catalonia is high, and in some municipalities, especially urban ones or those on the coast, failure to comply with urban planning regulations generated significant profits.