Lluís Llach: "The Catalan Alliance, like Vox, does not respect human rights."

BarcelonaA few days before the celebration of the Diada, the president of the National Assembly of Catalonia, Lluís Llach, emphasizes the need for civil society to take the initiative in pressuring political parties to achieve independence.

The Diada's motto is "More reasons than ever to fight for independence." In short, what are these reasons?

— The first is the lack of recognition of the right to self-determination. Entering the realm of the State-Catalonia relationship, fiscal plunder is the metaphor for what's happening to us. When we complain about trains or healthcare, what we should understand is that every year we are forced to pay 22 billion euros that they don't repay. Germany, which pays the most in Europe, gives 20 billion. It's an attack on our future development and impoverishes us. Then there's respect for the language, what they're doing is insane.

Have you set any attendance figures for the demonstration?

— We shouldn't give a figure, but it's clear these aren't the demonstrations of many years ago. I won't let anyone know. But, within the European framework, a demonstration for a national demand has no parallel anywhere. And so, if there were 125,000 last year, it's still a mere trifle.

I said this because the recent demonstrations called by the Assembly, such as the one for the King's visit to Montserrat, have not managed to attract many people.

— The entire independence movement is in absolute depression. We were trying to achieve an exemplary milestone in the world, achieving independence through democratic means, and we found ourselves with an independence government that has been making autonomist demands since 2017 and making shameful deals. The amnesty law is all very well, but ultimately, assuming that the state wouldn't act is naive. The problem with the independence movement playing autonomist is that it plays on false pretenses and goes against its own political effectiveness, and this is a disaster. The independence movement must act as an independence movement.

Returning to the demonstration. They're calling for participation. Does this include the Catalan Alliance?

— We don't invite political parties. People who come are welcome to come as long as they agree with the purpose of the demonstration.

But during the presentation of the Diada, he said that the Catalan Alliance did not respect human rights.

— The ANC statutes clearly state that the ANC will not participate in the actions of entities or parties that do not respect human rights. The ANC is an inclusive civil society organization. I believe that Vox does not respect human rights.

And the Catalan Alliance?

— I don't think so either. Because the leaders themselves take photos with the most fascist leaders in Europe, democratically elected, like Hitler and Mussolini. Ms. Orriols herself says she would vote Vox many times, but she doesn't because they are Spanish.

If Orriols attends the demonstration, what has she said she will do, will she be welcome?

— She's perfectly welcome, of course. Welcome is another word. That depends on each person who sees her, right? But she can come, of course. No one has been forbidden to come. She thrives on us excluding her, but it turns out we don't.

The Diada manifesto is highly critical of the pro-independence parties. Do they lack the will to achieve independence?

— Willpower is one thing, and practical, day-to-day effectiveness is another. They are a complete failure. What we must do is strengthen the independence movement. When we as organizations are strong, we will be able to speak face-to-face with the political parties. But as long as we are weakened, the political parties will ignore us.

The CUP is also committed to reaching agreements with the PSC. As a former CUP voter, what do you think of this approach?

— I'm totally against it. And I'm surprised. But I have some friends in the CUP in Empordà, and I still love them. But I don't think helping is the CUP's role, even if it's theoretically beneficial, because the execution of things comes afterward, with a bad president like Mr. Illa.

In the manifesto, you also denounce "sterile and deceptive normalization." Wasn't the amnesty necessary?

— When the pro-independence parties accept autonomism as a chess game, they make a terrible fool of themselves. President Isla didn't go to see the president in exile. He went to see the president of a political party he needs.

Does this meeting feed this normality?

— The president in exile, for whom I have all due respect, knows what this is about. Now, once committed to pursuing independence policy through regional resources, he finds himself facing these situations. And the independence movement is wondering if that's why we held the October 1st meeting. It's hard to understand. For the independence movement, this meeting is very damaging.

Given this situation of resignations that you denounce from the major pro-independence parties, is the creation of new parties necessary?

— There's a significant abstention rate, and if the old parties can't win them back, new avenues need to be found. And now there's Alhora and Depies.

Standing was born from former ANC secretaries who supported the civic list.

— They talk about creating a DUI, but they have to follow them. It wasn't a successful election either. However, support for the independence movement at the polls is at 40%, which is brutal, and at the lowest point for the independence movement. The problem is that the pro-independence majority has been lost. But what we, as organizations, can't do is wait for the parties to do something. Independence depends more than ever on ordinary people.

Standing was speaking now. Most of the secretaries from the critical sector have finally left. Is it necessary to engage in self-criticism from the leadership, or was it a necessary step to avoid blocking the ANC leadership?

— We won over a group of people who shared the belief that the ANC cannot become an electoral alternative. Now they've decided to form De pie (Stand Up), and good luck to them. Now we won't have to spend all day arguing about whether or not to form a party. We won't form any party; we are transversal and serve the whole of society.

How can the ANC put pressure on the parties without challenging their electoral hegemony?

— Empowering ourselves. We have 27,000 members, more than all the political parties combined. But while people are discouraged and staying home, the political parties are very calm, and so is Spain. We need to take the lead.

And do you have any specific campaigns or actions planned to encourage people?

— To carry out the actions that some of us would like to take and have more prepared, we need people to mobilize. In the protests against the commuter train or against the king's visit, we only gathered a few hundred people. And on August 17, which was an act of state terror, I counted 40 people. So, no DUI or anything. The day we once again become a powerful force on the streets, we can go to the parties and tell them, "Either do this or you'll be disavowed."

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