Jordi Casassas: "Immigration is not and has never been a problem in Catalonia."

Conflent MeadowThe president of the Catalan Summer University, historian Jordi Casassas, welcomes the ARA on one of the few mornings he has a gap during the week of frenetic activity of this event that, for 57 years, has brought together the best of Catalanism in Prada de Conflent.

This year's edition, which ends today, is entitled Towards post-democracy? The resistance in the Catalan countriesHow does Catalanism confront populism?

— Some might say it's more of a temporary issue, but we've been allowing this situation to progress for many years. Democracy is very weak. We think it's something established, but democracy requires people who believe in it, willing to accept rights but also to fulfill obligations. This has been lost. What we must do, above all, is be aware of this and remember that Catalanism has been built precisely in the process of democratization. Even conservative Catalanism, not just the most progressive, and that is what we must recover.

Is the existence of an extreme right-wing separatist movement a historical anomaly?

— It's never happened before. There have always been people who think what these groups think. What's happening is that now this is structured into an electoral strategy that has people voting for it, within a trend of populist simplification of life. It has led to the degradation of public and collective life.

Should the UCE exclude the Catalan Alliance, even if it grows?

— We are open to proposals and dialogue, but if there is no correction, limits must be set. The limit is aggression, and aggression is the vanguard of post-democracy. In building a society, there must be an element of cohesion. It cannot be a permanent "every man for himself," because then there is no people.

Do you think there is a deterioration of national consciousness among young people?

— We're not doing it right. People who feel Catalan, they feel like people. What's happening is that we're increasingly like Asterix and Obelix, we're a little more isolated. It's a shift away from Western society, from the Enlightenment society, from reason and democracy. It's going to hell.

It is a very pessimistic reflection.

— Yes, it's pessimistic. That's why I put a question mark at the end –Towards post-democracy?—to leave a door open. And there's also talk of resistance from the Catalan Countries.

How do you view Salvador Illa's government? Councilor Esther Niubó was at the UCE this year.

— I think the PSC has made a more PSOE-led choice than the PSC. It's an autonomist government and wants to build roads and make the commuter rail system work. And for things to work means "let's cut the crap." So, in this sense, it's anti-independence, but it's also anti-radical. But radical demands aren't just national ones; they also say that we don't like Spain, as it is, and that we should at least be confederate.

It is a Government that, At first, he did not want to talk about Catalunya Nord.

— It's obvious. And he puts on I don't know what party one tablao flamenco-Catalan And things like that. This indicates a very determined intention. That a government of the Generalitat, with all the inertia behind it, would try to slow history down like this... This isn't right.

Do you notice a growing interest within Catalanism in how to address immigration?

— In Europe it is becoming an important issue. President Puigdemont said something Common sense: we need the possibility of management, and there's also a problem of sensitivity. Catalonia is a land of transit that has had a low birth rate since the 19th century, following the French model. It's an industrial country that has shaped the contemporary world through immigration. Now it's a different kind of immigration, if you will. And we must be aware that in Catalonia, the issue of immigration isn't a problem. It's never been a problem.

What do you think about this debate?

— Catalonia has had a capacity to integrate this immigration, in pre-democratic and democratic times. However, today's scale means that this integration can only be achieved if you have a state. And if you don't have one, you have to have all the skills and tools to do so. And, look, there's something: in Catalonia there are ghettos. The only good thing, we could say, is that [the newcomers] take their children to school, and from there the children come out singing the Sun sunand doing the Castañada. It's something Catalan nationalism has always done. Who can be surprised that they're demanding tools for it?