Joan Pujolar: "Why did they cover sex in 'Merlí' and not Catalan? Because it's taboo."

BarcelonaJoan Pujolar, professor of sociolinguistics at the UOC (Olot, 1964), is one of the leading specialists in the construction of identity through language. In recent years, he has focused his research on new Catalan speakers: who they are, how they change languages, why, and what recognition they receive from the community. On Saturday, October 25, he will participate in the seminar Semicircles organized by the Platform for Language with a timely presentation on Catalan, immigration and social cohesion.

You started studying the language about 40 years ago. Was it a moment of hope?

— Yes, we were a generation that was going to consolidate Catalan. Many of my classmates wanted to teach at the high school, but I felt like I had caused my teachers a lot of suffering and didn't want to find a student like me. In fact, I started English Philology, but I was bored; and since it was easy to study two philologies at the same time back then, I signed up for Catalan.

At the end of the last century, before the great waves of international migration, it seemed that the normalization of Catalan could be achieved.

— And I think a certain normality was being achieved. For the generation that was first educated in Catalan, Catalan was the language of choice outside the home. But life goes on and things happen.

What happened? What is your diagnosis?

— The problem is demographic, because just as many people speak Catalan as before, but we represent a smaller percentage because more and more diverse people have continued to arrive. Since 1980, those born outside of Catalonia have always been 35%. Since the 1990s, those who come from Spain have changed to foreigners, but the 35% foreign nationality remains. These are social and economic logics that permeate everywhere, but here they are very pronounced: if Catalonia were a state, it would only be ahead of some Arab countries and Luxembourg, according to UN data. Another problem is that many of the population has not overcome subordination, the feeling that Catalan is a second-class language.

Why is this idea taking hold?

— How is gender or racial inequality consolidated? Well, because socialization gives you messages: people have experiences, see things, are careful, end up associating the language with certain spaces, certain people... Just as women or minorities tread carefully in certain spaces or situations, the experience of speaking Catalan is the same. This is what has surprised me most over all these years: I believed that "Catalan is the official language," and that was it, and that was it.

Schools, the media, and the administration—the pillars of normalization—were tasked with transforming the million and a half citizens who arrived between the 1950s and 1980s into Catalan speakers. Today, with the new context of global mobility and communication, it's clear that this isn't enough.

— Communications is more of a problem than immigration, I've seen it at home with my children. I'm known for having said what "Catalan isn't that cool" for young peopleBut now that time has passed, I think we should interpret it as a post-facto explanation, that is, they get used to speaking Spanish and then look for an explanation. What's clear is that, in situations of contact, Catalan usually loses if it doesn't dominate much in the environment. In any case, as I was saying, I'm not convinced that Catalan has lost its place as a language of the Catalan-speaking community.

What does it mean?

— The use of Catalan hasn't declined. Those who spoke Catalan continue to speak Catalan and continue to speak it with their children. The family structure defends its position. However, in percentage terms, it must necessarily decline: if in 2000 there were 7 million of us and now there are 8 million, and everyone has come from abroad... More than 45% of people between 30 and 40 years old were born abroad, and of the remaining 55%, half speak Catalan at home.

That is to say: although Catalan is the habitual language for only 32.6% of citizens, you would say that "Catalan resists" taking into account the context.

— Exactly. We give too much importance to that percentage, which, moreover, is 42% if we take into account speakers who declare themselves bilingual. And we should note that, in the same surveys, Catalan users rise to 70%. If the approach to Catalan as a language of cohesion still makes sense, it is precisely thanks to this contingent of language sharers whom we often dismiss as if they weren't real. The gesture of declaring they speak Catalan in a survey is already a public testament to participation in the community, and we should take that very seriously.

Can we expect Catalan to continue to be the country's cohesive language?

— I think it's possible, but we have to work on it. Switching to Spanish at the slightest excuse doesn't help. But the fundamental thing is that there has been an economic change of which we aren't sufficiently aware, and it's an internationalization from which we've emerged well but which has had its linguistic effects. There are things people don't want to talk about, and the discontent with Catalan has been a long-standing issue, so as not to step on the wrong foot.

During the trial, it seemed that talking about Catalan was of no use.

— But that already tells you that you have a problem, because if you thought it was the normal language, the public language, you shouldn't have any problem speaking it. There are people who experience the "I'll keep Catalan" campaign as a kind of urban guerrilla warfare, and that should be the norm. I always speak Catalan and have never had any problems. It's just that if you do it naturally, you forget about it.

After the path of sympathy hasn't worked, some are calling for the application of language rights and regulations. Can making conflicts explicit, for example through complaints and sanctions, be positive?

— This can be done, but first we should solve the work that falls to us. We should have a coherent approach. If we ask those who come from outside to speak Catalan, we must speak Catalan to them. If they go to the administration to fill out paperwork, they must speak Catalan to them. We can already demand a C2 level from a teacher, but if they teach the class in Catalan but speak to a student in Spanish to, supposedly, "create greater proximity," we will remain as we are. We must solve this. I believe the pressure to learn Catalan already exists and there are incentives. We must apply that pressure, naturally and with humanity. Now, if we give them the work to learn the language, the benefits must be significant.

The famous linguistic awareness is the most difficult thing to expand.

— But that's what needs to be addressed. We must learn to speak about language. Note: there is no fiction, no literature, no theater, about the problem. There are only very exceptional examples, such as novel by Sergi Belbel Die seventeen. You do Marline And it turns out everyone speaks Catalan in class, no problem. But our classes aren't like that. Why did they cover sex and not Catalan?

Because?

— It's a taboo subject. The experience of aggression we endured during the Franco regime is a collective trauma. I never imagined that in 2025 we'd still be talking about Franco, but the fact is that we haven't closed the issue: it's a skeleton in the closet. In Spain, they haven't bought into the idea of spaces for other languages, and even less so the judiciary, which has decided to play politics. If the entire Spanish media system has a problem with Catalan, it's because we haven't reached an agreement. This means we need to talk more, we need to negotiate. People need more guidance; it's not about crucifying those who serve without a reason.

The argument of the restoration of pre-Franco legality This is an argument that many immigrants and local citizens no longer understand or take into account. Three out of four Catalans are already children of immigrants, and for many, Spanish is a family language and, therefore, they don't consider it a colonial or minority language. Should we look for new arguments?

— Catalan nationalism in the early 20th century was part of the spirit of the times: Europe was organized into nations with distinct languages. Now, the context is one of neoliberalism and the commercialization of life, and there's a utilitarian, mercantilist view of languages. I believe that languages, and Catalan specifically, offer a space for community, belonging, and relationships. Linguistic communities are an opportunity for people to participate in public life. And I want there to be a community in Catalan on how we should organize our society. If you flatten the landscape linguistically, you're left with a single point of view. There are hypertrophied languages that don't allow for social participation.

The language is condition sine qua non to integrate into Catalan identity?

— I think so, Catalan identity is very linguistic. Politically, the message has been conveyed that the door is open, and that's fine, but they must enter. A community is an area of participation. If you don't participate in any way—that is, you don't know the language, you never watch TV, you don't read... you're a Catalan by citizenship. But the question is whether the Catalan community has the capacity to articulate the country, which means making it work. I think so. But we have to decide and play the game. We can't think it should be the government's responsibility; there are things that the people must push forward. And there are already quite a few people mobilized: half the country is teaching Catalan to the other half! I think fighting for that is great; I think it makes sense.

Is there a danger that Catalan will become a domestic, tribal language?

— No, if this happens, Catalan will simply be abandoned. Languages aren't meant for domesticity. A language that has no public space and is only useful in the domestic sphere is a sister language that's disappearing.