Theodor Kallifatides: "Harmony and happiness are sold to you; it's impossible to find them."

BarcelonaWe met the Greek-Swedish writer Theodor Kallifatides by the Mediterranean Sea, at the Club Natació Barceloneta. At 87, he walks with agility. It's a sunny day; people are at the outdoor pools and on the beach. At the end of the interview, Xavier Bertral, the photographer and a keen reader of his work, explains that his daughter Emma once, when referring to the typical sugary Greek sweet... kourabieHe asked, "Can I have a caliphate?" Theodor was charmed by the anecdote. And so we said goodbye... We had previously spoken for an hour about the twelve Olympian gods and, through them, about a present marked by the eternal problems of the human condition: war and peace, love and hate, jealousy and hope. The writer, who emigrated to Sweden at the age of 25 and became a successful author there and in the Swedish language—we conducted the interview in English, but he also speaks French, Italian, Spanish, and German—will receive the first Diari ARA International Prize on Thursday, November 27, at the Palau de la Música.

If you're ready, we'll travel from Ancient Greece to the most exciting present of the 21st century. Let's start with Zeus, supreme god of Olympus. One of his wives was Mnemosyne, goddess of memory. And he had several lovers, including Europa.

I've read a lot of Greek mythology. I believe, and I've written about it, that there's no form of life that isn't included in mythology. Everything happens, everything you can imagine. It's incredible, incredible. Zeus was a kind of ancient macho. He had all the women at his disposal; he was famous for that. And he punished his enemies very cruelly, even people who weren't exactly enemies. His armor was superior to everyone else's. He was well-equipped. But nothing about him appeals to me.

And what about Mnemosyne?

For me, and for all of us, memory is absolutely essential. All I have is memory, nothing else. Everything I write is based on things I remember. Actually, the female deities were more interesting than the male ones in many ways. They had, for example, moral dilemmas that Zeus never had. Zeus didn't even know what morality was. They were involved in important things, especially the arts: dance, writing, painting. And they had power, but of a different kind. soft power.

How does he see Europe, not the goddess, but the Europe of today?

I don't know. Good things are happening, but very slowly. And I don't know if we can avoid the biggest problem facing Europe or the world today: war. I don't think Europe has a clear understanding of this. I don't hear people talking about the possibility of peace. They talk about the possibility of a successful war.

In Ukraine, they are fighting hard against Putin.

Well, if we don't have peace, there's no point in discussing anything else: people will die, whether from war or hunger, disease, or whatever. And our planet will be destroyed. I haven't seen anyone calculate what a war means for the climate. A jet plane, a fighter jet, uses five liters of fuel per second. Per second! Can I tell you a story? I was in Gotland, the [Swedish] island where I spend my summers, and there was a military air show. Planes were everywhere, with their plumes of fuel, and people were applauding. Then I lit my pipe, and everyone looked at me as if I were committing the greatest crime.

Absurd, yes. As absurd as the rise of the far right?

The only good thing about the far right is that it never surprises you. Whatever they say, violence is their means of seizing power. You can't even call them a party: their means of seizing power isn't the people, but violence. There's been a discussion in Sweden about this, because of the famous book written by a German Jew about how the Nazis used language to preserve and strengthen the Nazis. I've read it; it's very good, but it's very wrong: the Nazis didn't become what they became so they would use certain words. They used weapons. They killed people, exiled people, left people unemployed—all with as much violence as possible. And then came language, which somehow motivated all of this.

Today, the far right is somewhat different. They don't explicitly use violence.

Not yet.

We move on to another goddess, Hera, Zeus's third wife, goddess of marriage and, therefore, of jealousy. She was also violent. It is said that she was raised by Horus, who controlled the cycle of the seasons, the weather, and life. Today we have a problem with time, with Horus. What do you think of how we spend our time?

In our quest to find free time, we spend all our time doing nothing. This is what's happening. We're constantly trying to find free time: to swim, to be with the children, to go to the doctor, and so on. And every day we impose more and more obligations on ourselves. My father was a schoolteacher. He worked at two schools, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, and a third at night. He had a family and was the sole provider. Well, I never saw him stressed. Three jobs every day, year after year. I, on the other hand, am a pensioner and I'm stressed.

It doesn't seem like it.

Ask my wife. I'm not sleeping well. I have all the symptoms. Very often I say to myself, why are you running? These deities, Hera and Horus, had enormous power. They controlled people's lives. Time and birth are connected. And then Hera tried somehow to prevent Zeus's lovers from having children.

Poseidon, god of the seas and oceans. With his trident, he could make springs gush forth. He was Zeus's younger brother... It makes me think of the climate crisis.

I don't dare say what I think of Poseidon. He's a Trump, the Trump of antiquity. Everything was possible for him. With Trump, nothing ever happens, but everything is possible. Poseidon was the same. He could be very, very nice, and at the same time very, very evil. He also belongs to the category of cruel gods.

Will we stop the climate crisis?

We have a huge problem. But I don't think all possible solutions have been exhausted. We can do something. I'm not a scientist; there are people who know a lot. But I see the consequences every day. In Gotland, in Greece. Everywhere. The trees are dying. The green grass is dying. Water is a problem. All of this is also reflected in people's health, with lung and heart diseases. We must take this seriously. This isn't propaganda. It's the truth.

In his literature, people are the focus, but the landscape also matters: walking, feeling.

I've lived in Gotland for 52 years. Mainly because I like the place. But what I like most is the peace and quiet. It's peaceful, although they've brought the army back now. They do drills every day.

Is there tourism too?

It's constantly growing. Soon there will be too many people in Gotland. I'm not complaining because I'm a tourist myself. But other people are complaining.

Demeter was the goddess of agriculture. Is it possible to return to the wisdom of the earth? 

Demeter has a daughter, Persephone, married to the god of the underworld. And he doesn't allow her to visit her mother. Only once a year, in spring. It's a beautiful thing. Every spring the little daughter appears. Demeter is a symbol of patience. Of being calm, of knowing how to be without saying anything. I like her very much. One of my cousins is named Demeter. I love her as a goddess. She is calm. She loves the earth. She takes care of the earth. That's what makes her so enchanting.

Hestia, goddess of the hearth, is somewhat the same. Does she hold the secret to harmony?

In a way. But mostly it's about keeping the house running, the family, the fireplace. Harmony is something you're given. Like a gift. And it doesn't happen very often. Of course, there are moments of harmony. When I write and I know I'm writing well, I hear it. But most of the time I'm not writing very well.

By the way, do you rewrite a lot?

Of course! I write each sentence five or ten times... So, harmony and happiness are just selling you the idea. But it's impossible to find them. If you do, you end up becoming a stranger: then being harmonious means ignoring your children, ignoring your wife, ignoring your friends. That's not my life. I love my wife, my children, my friends. And that—loving—isn't a way of being harmonious: it's a way of living with problems, that is, of living.

You have to live, and harmony may come.

We don't need it that much. The point is that human beings have to work. For ourselves and for others. And that's why we have conflicts. If you want harmony, you must avoid all possible conflicts with everyone. So what kind of life is that?

Athena is the protector of the city of Athens. She is associated with wisdom and crafts, but also with war. Wisdom and war don't seem to go together very well.

Athena is a prototype of the woman inferior to men. She was born from Zeus's head. And from the beginning, she had no power of her own. All her power came from other gods. But she had one opportunity: to found the city of Athens. Without the city, without the Acropolis and democracy, I don't think Athena would matter so much. Can you imagine the United States without New York? Can you imagine Greece without Athens?

Democracy is his legacy, a democracy that is faltering today.

There's a Greek proverb that says even if the goddess is kind to you, you must work. You have to use your hands.

Democracy needs to be worked on.

Yes. Democracy, by its very nature, is open to all enemies. It's the only state where it's possible to say: I'm against you. I'm against democracy. In Russia, you can't say this. Democracy is open, and for that reason, it's also weak. Unless people are sufficiently educated... Years ago, we had a discussion in Sweden: someone was burning a Gospel book, and some people protested vehemently. But the response was that burning it was a privilege granted by democracy.

Burning the Gospel, the flag, or whatever symbol it may be...

Yes, it doesn't matter. But this also weakens democracy. We've somehow lost our common sense. My grandmother would have died if you had gone to her house, taken her icon, and burned it. Democracy without respect for others is very difficult. That's the point. Democracy is open. But you must respect all opinions. Well, I don't know. Maybe it's because I'm old, but I think human life needs limits. For example, like the Bible: Thou shalt not kill.

Apollo, god of medicine, male beauty, music, and poetry—of many things. Have you made some kind of secret pact with Apollo?

But Apollo was a coward. And at the same time, he was the god of the sun. In the few images we have of him, the sun always rises. He is very handsome. But he was cruel: he could kill his enemies, or his former lovers, without any problem. Achilles himself was killed by Apollo.

The secret to your good form? When you were young you even played football for Panathinaikos.

Okay, now I do some daily exercises. And I watch football on television, but only the women's game. It's not because they're women. That's why they play so beautifully, like they're dancing. The Spanish team, especially.

Artemis was the protector of newborns and of the Amazons, or female warriors, remaining independent of male rule. She seems like a very modern woman.

Yes, in a way it is, only it can also be cruel. And then there's the vow she's taken never to be with a man, like Catholic nuns. I don't understand this. How can anyone come up with the idea of prohibiting something as basic to human beings as reproduction? It's strange.

Does the future belong more to women than to men?

In mythology, there was the kingdom of the Amazons. We don't know many details, but we do know one rather amusing fact. They didn't keep men with them; only once a year, when they wanted to have a child, would they go to other villages, take strong, healthy boys, and bring them back. Then they forced them to sleep on their backs all the time, ready for service twenty-four hours a day. But the queen of the Amazons lost her power in a fight with Heracles, who killed her, even though she was in love with him.

Love is complicated.

She paid for it. And now we're paying for it too.

Does the future belong to women?

Yes, yes, by definition. Because they are the ones who make the children.

Is it also a matter of sensitivity?

It's all because of this. A change has taken place. A few days ago, I met a young, 28-year-old female mayor here, who was shy. If I thought about male politicians and then looked at her, she represented a whole different world, because of her appearance, because of who she was.

Hermes was the god of boundaries and travelers, and of many things: shepherds, orators, wit, writers and poets, athletics, and so on. He was everything. In some ways, he's also like Trump. What do you think of this Hermes-Trump?

Of course, I don't know Trump the man, the person. What I see is that he doesn't have any political line that he can't change. I can't say he's against democracy, because he isn't always. But sometimes he is. With people like that, you can't really categorize them. They're like Proteus, who had the power to change his shape.

Even with Hermes, ten of the borders. In the 1960s you were well received in Sweden. How do you think Kallifatides from all over the world are received in Sweden today, and by extension, throughout Europe? 

Without a doubt, life and integration are not so easy for immigrants today. They have it much more complicated than it was for me as an immigrant worker.

Let's go to Ares, god of war.

He's stupid. Completely stupid. He can't do anything good. Nothing at all. He's like a mobster.

We have quite a few politicians with a warrior spirit.

A very powerful symbol of power, and of the loss of control over power, is the myth of the Hydra of Lerna and its hundred heads. You could cut them off, and they would grow back. This is what is happening today. Sometimes someone wants what is best and does it well. But they are killed, and the problem returns. Another head grows. Before the latest catastrophe in Gaza, some Israeli politicians tried to create a kind of peace. They were all killed. Every single one. Now we have mediocrity.

Now there is hope in New York with the new mayor-elect, Zohran Mamdani.

Let's see what happens. Because to do anything, to change many things, he needs Trump's permission. I suppose one day people will be enough for him: poverty in the United States is horrendous. The same thing is happening in Greece. Globally, poverty is increasing. And so is the wealth of a few.

We will always have love: Aphrodite.

Aphrodite was born by the waves of the sea. And that's why she has no father, which is a very good thing [laughs]. She was very beautiful, blonde, although sometimes she was jealous of other beautiful women. She could also be cruel. Artemis is the one who best symbolizes the modern woman, I think. Yes. Because she has power and a good heart. She's a fighter. And she helps other women. The only drawback is what I mentioned about renouncing men.

Nobody is perfect on Mount Olympus. 

That's right. And not here on Earth either.

The last god of Olympus is Hephaestus.

I like him. I see him as a Spanish worker. He's always doing things. He does everything well. He makes Achilles' weapons. He's married to Aphrodite. He works in his workshop, at home. He discovers new things. So I have nothing against him. He's something like Hestia for women.

Do you feel a bit like a god who gives a second life to your characters – yourself, your family, your friends… – through your literature?

That's a very kind question, but no, I don't feel that way. I know our literature isn't going to last very long. Who can be a classic these days? I don't see any possibility for any of us. We'll be read for a year, maybe ten years, but people still like Tolstoy. And Cervantes. Let's not get to that point. It's impossible. So I don't have that kind of ambition. The only one I have is to leave behind a written record of the life I've lived and a record of the lives of the people around me. Maybe it will be useful someday, maybe not. And I use all the power I have, my imagination, whatever.

What is he writing now?

Now I only write articles. About the problem of democracy, for example. And I don't think I can write any more novels. I'm an old man. I'm 87. I don't feel I have anything important to add: I think I've already said what I had to say. Now I give lectures or interviews, which I appreciate, of course, because the alternative would be worse, much worse.

Finally, what message of hope, if any, would you give to young people?

[After a prolonged silence] Love one another.

Thank you for the interview.

It's been an unusual interview: there's no life that doesn't exist in mythology. Love and hate. Everything. I read a lot, even today.