Joan Manuel del Pozo: "Perhaps it is necessary to reorient the inclusive school, but not diminish it"

BarcelonaSince 2024, Joan Manuel del Pozo has been the president of the Education Council, the body that will have to lead the educational debate announced by the president of the Generalitat. A doctor of philosophy, Del Pozo was also Minister of Education and Universities in 2006, during the government of Pasqual Maragall.

What specific assignment has President Illa given him?

— It is a precise mandate for the Council to be the instrument of a process of social debate on education, with the will to reach agreements and consensuses and generate a new climate of trust throughout the system. We, as a Council, are beginning to select some of the major topics that should be put into circulation, because it is also true that we cannot have a debate without concrete topics. In education there are a thousand interesting things. Let us select four or five of the most important ones and focus on them.

What could these specific topics to be discussed be?

— I don't know what they will be, that still remains to be done. Now, if we can name a probable one, it will surely be the issue of inclusive education. Not to discuss the principle itself, but to talk about the ways in which the system adapts to new needs, the real possibilities, the resources, etc. But it is truly just a hypothesis I am making to suggest it could be one of the major topics.

What is your opinion on the inclusive school model?

— The inclusive school aims to correct inequalities; therefore, it is an ideally optimal, necessary, and indispensable proposal. As I have said, it is likely that this will be one of the topics of dialogue. It is in our interest that there is growing awareness because we cannot deny the principle and we must try to apply it as much as possible. But we must also understand that perhaps some reorientation is needed, which does not mean a reduction. Reorientation. Because what is indisputable is that every boy and girl has the right to the best education possible, in the best context possible. And this means being included in the best system possible.

Can methodologies be a point of debate?

— I do not believe that in these debates one can reach the precision of which methodologies should be applied preferentially. Teaching methodology and didactics are a technically complex issue. There are didactics of many orientations and many of them with very good arguments that are in opposite directions.

How will this educational debate work?

— First it is necessary to decide on the topics, then specify with experts how to manage public participation and also commit all councilors to the project. The management of participation will be done by hiring a company or expert individuals who can tell us how it can be done based on what we believe is necessary.

Who will be part of this debate?

— It is important that many people who are not usually in the places of debate enter. Without excluding those who are already there and it is good that they are. Therefore, there should be a combination of expertise and novelty. That is to say, this call will go to all agents of the educational community and more citizens who have an interest in education. In the first place, to teachers, families and students, but also to local administrations and the department. All people who have an interest and believe that they can contribute something are invited to the dialogue.

What role should unions play?

— Everyone knows that unions have had an exclusive leading role over the last year. And everyone knows that they have reached agreements. Therefore, we could say that from the point of view of labor conflict, this chapter is on the way to being overcome, if not already overcome. This does not mean that it is closed, because they have full freedom to continue thinking about demands. No one is saying that unions are excluded from this process, but I do believe that we must go beyond them to talk about education. It cannot be that education policy is union-held hostage because there are many educational issues that are not labor-related. Therefore, let them not feel excluded, but let them not want to be protagonists. Because they have already been so. And they have been, moreover, with results.

When do you estimate the debate will end?

— If we say that this must be finished by Christmas, we are surely setting an unpleasant goal, because we are just starting and we still don't know how many things will go. Therefore, between now and Christmas there is no time to do something halfway well-done. If we say the end of the school year, we are possibly going too far and, furthermore, with a significant drawback, which is that in the month of May there are municipal elections and, therefore, there would be a period of overlap that would be a nuisance to everyone. Therefore, when the elections arrive, this should be finished. We could say that a good month to have finished it would be April.

Should we imagine that the debate ends with a consensus on concrete decisions to be implemented?

— This would be the ideal possibility. We must also say that it is very difficult to reach consensus on issues such as education, which lead to very differentiated ideological, ethical, and religious positions. This is demonstrated by the very process that has been experienced both in Spain and in Catalonia of changing educational laws every other day. I wish we could reach a consensus, but I would not worry if it is not reached. If, along the way, there has been calm discussion, trust has been extended, and the climate has changed, we will have done a lot.

Can it end with a 10-year educational pact?

— It might happen, and I really hope it does. The thing is, we cannot force ourselves to achieve it just any way. I believe a characteristic that can help this go well is spontaneity. That is to say, having maximum autonomy in the process. And I believe this autonomy will bear positive fruits, but I do not know which ones. One of them could be this.

Two years ago, a commission of experts was already created following the PISA disaster, which issued a long report of recommendations. Is Catalonia overdiagnosed?

— The good news is that we have the conclusions of this steering group and that they have been worked on by the department. These ideas and others will also be ingredients in this great debate. But I believe that now the debate should not be understood as a dialogue of diagnosis, but as a dialogue of taking action.

What is your diagnosis? Where have we failed to get to where we are now?

— It is a difficult question... It is what they call multifactorial situations, in which the general climate of the world and the evolution of our society towards very harsh inequalities are not secondary. I believe that the unrest, which it is evident exists, does not respond to anyone's bad faith. It does respond to very harsh objective situations and to certain deficits: from budget cuts to issues of teacher training, to the inhibition of families... But the original sin is the growing inequality of society, which finds an immediate, direct, and daily reflection in school.

There is also an open debate in schools about whether principals should have more decision-making power.

— Here perhaps there is a problem: the word power is unpleasant because it is associated with imposition. I would not speak so much about the fact that they should have more power as more capacity for guidance and management. And this capacity is associated with good working conditions as well. I am sure that among directors, one does not seek so much a position of harsh authority as one of capacity to guide and manage that is shared and that is respected. I could not agree more.