Tue Halgreen: "In education we must not start from zero all of us nor invent our own methods"

BarcelonaTue Halgreen is a senior analyst at the OECD and responsible for the coordination of the PISA report. He speaks to the newspaper ARA following a generalized drop in results, the fact that Spain has obtained the worst score in its history, and that Catalonia has been left out of the international report for excluding more students than permitted from the exams.

The fall in results is, once again, devastating. Did you expect it?

— We had already seen some signs of it. On an international scale, we already saw around 2015 the beginning of what seemed to be a possible long-term decline. Then the pandemic arrived and we saw a decline in many countries. The analysis we did at that time already pointed out that this was more than an issue related to the pandemic because the results decreased even where schools remained open during covid. This meant that there was something broader happening.

To what do they attribute the decline, then?

— A large part obviously may have to do with screens and, more specifically, with mobile phones. It is also true that we do not have a different world where everything has been evolving since 2015 without mobile phones. Therefore, it is very difficult to say statistically to what extent there is an impact of the introduction of mobile phones on the decline we see so far. But there are some clear indications that this is an important part of the story because the decline begins when everyone starts having a mobile phone.

Is it a widespread phenomenon?

— Yes. If there were many other factors, we would probably see some countries that would have changed their approach to the curriculum, or other changes in their educational system; we would perhaps see some improving and others worsening depending on the decisions they have made. But almost all countries in the OECD area, that is to say, in the Western world, are experiencing this decline. Therefore, there is something broader happening, which may have to do not only with the decisions we are taking in our specific region or in our country.

Beyond worsening, how has mobile phone usage affected students' ability?

— There are some things that students are still quite capable of doing. When it comes to reading shorter texts, the type of text you would see on social media, or if you scroll through the internet, with these we do not see problems. Where we see the problem is when it comes to longer texts, texts that cannot fit on a single screen. When we look at students' ability to integrate information from different types of sources, that is to say, when before you might have sat down with a book, then you would have looked at another book, and you would have had to compare the information from both. It is really here that we start to see that they have difficulties.

What difficulties?

— They have difficulties when it comes to really dedicating the time needed to read well and understand what we are reading. We are seeing an increase in what we call hasty reading. Students who simply read too fast. There is nothing wrong with reading fast. In fact, it is something that we would normally say is good. But if you read too fast to be able to grasp the information, what its meaning really is, then it is a problem. And that is exactly what we are seeing.

Do the countries that obtain the best results have something in common?

— When we look at these countries, they are actually quite different. I do believe that one of the things these school systems have in common is that they maintain good classroom management, so that when students are in class, there is actually time to learn instead of having to maintain order and focus in the classroom. This is something we see in a country like Estonia, for example. This matters a lot, because if you lose time, you really also lose the opportunity to learn.

In Europe, we were surprised by Estonia, which is in the top 5.

— Yes, it is the country with the highest performance outside of Asia. Therefore, it is interesting to see what they have done. They have a school system in which almost everyone learns the basics. And I think this is really an important message. It is not just about having a high ceiling, about having some students who really master everything, but it is also necessary to have a high floor. They have said: "This is what we want everyone to learn". And they have achieved it.

What have they done with the screens?

— There are some myths and some truths about their digitalization. We often look at Estonia as a country that is very strongly digitized, and it is in many aspects. But when we look at what is happening in schools, it is not so clear that it is simply a matter of sitting in front of a computer all day. In fact, students in Estonia spend a little less time in front of the computer than the average in other countries. But what they do have is that they have invested in the infrastructure, so they have what they need. When students need to learn something that is relevant to learn with a computer, they have that infrastructure. And they use it to add specific tasks that involve specific learning related to digitalization. For example, computer programming is a subject in Estonian schools. But that does not mean that they are suddenly teaching all other subjects with the computer, or that they have replaced books with screens.

England has also remained in a high position.

— They have a specific approach regarding how to learn to read and they start early. In preschool, at four years old, is when they start learning to read. This is a program that they have introduced generally. Teachers have autonomy to decide exactly what type of textbooks they want to use or how they will organize their classes. But they must start early and they must focus specifically on teaching students how to read based on the sounds of the letters. It is a research-based approach. Therefore, time is taken from teachers to teach them what research says about what really works. I think that this is also an important thing, because we don't have to start from scratch and invent our own methods. In fact, there are methods that work better than others.

What does this sound system consist of?

— It is a very systematic approach to learning to read that is highly focused on learning how each letter has a sound and how you combine those sounds to form words. This is the specific approach that they have chosen in England instead of combining different approaches like when you have an image of a word and then you have the word written below it. This is another very pedagogical way of learning to read words. But in England they say: let's not combine all these different approaches. Let's choose one approach which is the one for which there is scientific evidence, which is the one that works best, and let's commit to it. They have been quite successful with this approach.

We also have the debate regarding the use of AI. What does the PISA report say about it?

— The data we have now indicate that, on an international scale, the countries with the highest AI usage also tend to be the ones with lower performance in PISA. Therefore, this is the general overview. That said, when we break it down according to what students use AI for, there is a big difference. Be careful if you use AI as a student to do your assignments, to write your essays, to help you summarize a text, instead of reading the book yourself... If you use it for these types of purposes, your results also tend to be lower. If, on the other hand, you use AI specifically to really help you learn, like a tutor that helps you not just to do the homework for you, but to better understand what it is you need to learn, then it can have a positive effect.

What would you advise doing with this technology, then?

— It is complex. It is a technology that can do so many things that it can distract you and, basically, it can prevent you from learning, but it can also help you in some circumstances if it is used in the right way. Therefore, my advice regarding AI is to use it in moderation, because caution is still needed, but also to ensure that you use it with a purpose. That is really the most important thing. I think it is clear that the learning process really comes from effort. It is through this that we learn. If we are asked to solve a mathematical equation, it is by working intensely to try to solve it and thinking about it that we learn. It is not by having the answer. AI chatbots are created to make our lives easier. This means that, basically, they have the opposite effect of learning.

In this year's report, wealthy students have regressed more in reading and mathematics than poor ones.

— It is a very interesting finding. I think, above all, this is an illustration of how broad the problem we are seeing now is. It shows that when we talk about a decline in learning, when we talk about students who really are not capable of reading as well as before, of concentrating as well as before, and of maintaining sustained attention on a text, it does not have to do with a specific group of students. It is really something that is happening to everyone. I believe this is the most important message of this finding. It is not so much about there being a problem with students who have parents with a high educational level or with many economic resources and that we need to give them additional help. I do not think that is the main conclusion of this finding. It has more to do with how broad and general the decline in reading skills that we are seeing is.

I was talking about methods before... The debate about project-based learning is still on the table. What do you think about it?

— I think that, insofar as this involves students, it is useful. There is a need for students to learn how to solve problems and think critically. These broader, higher-level competencies are necessary for work, to succeed in life afterwards. The question is to what extent you can separate these skills. In some cases, to be able to think critically, you also need to know and master the subject contents. I do not think it is a matter of one or the other. It is really a matter of these two different types of competencies, knowledge and higher-level competencies, actually working well when they go hand in hand.

Spain has achieved the worst results in its history.

— There are some things to highlight about Spain. One has to do with having enough teachers in schools and this is an important point. In Spain, there has been an increase in the number of school principals reporting a shortage of teachers to be able to truly offer the learning that is necessary. And this, obviously, is a problem. And it is also something that we see is very closely correlated with good student performance. This is something that is more under control in many countries, but in Spain it has worsened.

I must ask you about the exclusion of Catalonia. What do you know about what happened?

— We had never seen this level of exclusion [of students] in PISA before. And that is why we could not present the results for Catalonia in the international report. From our point of view, the results for Catalonia are not suitable for international comparisons. We do not know which students were excluded or which were included. Therefore, we cannot see if the students who were excluded would have actually had a lower or higher performance. But our hypothesis is, in general, that when there are more excluded students, this entails a risk of upward bias in the results.

Had any changes been made to these criteria regarding the previous edition?

— They were the same criteria as in 2022. They are made public and are also communicated through our manuals and other materials. Basically, it is about whether you can participate in the test or not. It is not about whether you are a good or bad student. Then, how this decision is actually made regarding which students meet these criteria and which students are excluded, is something that is decentralized and takes place within each country and each region. We do not intervene in this process until we receive the data.

In Catalonia, a debate has opened regarding the viability of inclusive schooling. What are your thoughts on it?

— This is, obviously, a debate that exists in many countries. But we do not have specific data or conclusions from this PISA edition regarding this, so it is difficult for me to interpret what is happening in this area.

We have been seeing results decline for a decade. Do you believe we will have any good news in the 2027 PISA results?

— It is possible and there are already good examples of it. There are countries like Estonia or England that are either keeping their results stable or are improving, despite having mobile phones and AI. And I believe that this is the most important message to remember: we now see that it is possible.