Ione Belarra: "With immigration powers, the Mossos d'Esquadra would carry out racist raids."

BarcelonaPodemos Secretary General Ione Belarra speaks to ARA at the most difficult moment for Spanish President Pedro Sánchez, who asserts that it is "no longer the solution," but rather the "problem."

What is your assessment of the events in Torre Pacheco?

— What we've seen is an example of far-right racist terrorism. These aren't riots between two gangs; we're talking about organized neo-Nazi groups in Spain that have moved there to spread terror. We must reflect on how we will confront the far right, which has this political leg, which is Vox, which is why we will take Mr. Abascal and his number one in Murcia to the prosecutor's office. We must also confront the media leg, the far-right instigators who spread fake news and who have been given the platform by the mainstream media. Like Daniel Esteve of Desokupa, who is a media product of programs like Ana Rosa Quintana's.

But there are people who buy into his rhetoric, often from disadvantaged backgrounds. What should Podemos offer to prevent this from happening?

— What we demonstrated last term with Podemos in government is that the right can be stopped with more rights. When the so-called progressive forces buy into the right's rhetoric and don't do what the people who voted for them expect, which is what Pedro Sánchez is doing. The result is the advance of fascism, and in the case of Spain, the PP and Vox. What we demonstrated on July 23rd is that people were willing to vote because Sánchez and Yolanda Díaz campaigned on the achievements of Podemos.

So Podemos has done everything right? Because after being in government, the far right has continued...

— We weren't able to implement our program when we were in government, because we were in a minority with respect to the PSOE. If we had had enough strength to pass a housing law that truly intervened in the rental market at the beginning of the term, we wouldn't have skyrocketing prices today. The problem is that social democracy and the PSOE in Spain are always blocking these transformations.

And are you still partners with Pedro Sánchez?

— We've never been Sánchez's partners in this term, because we gave him the investiture for free. We don't have an agreement with the president, and in fact, many people clearly see that without the driving force of Podemos, this government neither transforms nor governs. Furthermore, it's a government besieged by corruption. The PSOE has once again demonstrated that when it takes office, it continues to dip its hands into the treasury.

The cases affecting the PSOE date back to the time when Podemos was in government. Did you notice anything?

— Absolutely not. Podemos, in its eleven years of history, despite having been scrutinized down to the last invoice and taxi fare, has demonstrated that it is possible to aspire to zero corruption, even though we have held municipal, regional, and national government responsibilities.

So why don't they bring down the government?

— This doesn't depend at all on Podemos. The only one who can decide to call elections is Sánchez. We are now in a period of correlation of weaknesses. Fortunately, the PP and Vox lack the capacity to push for a vote of no confidence that would remove Sánchez from the government, but Sánchez doesn't have the numbers with which he won, either; he can push for a vote of no confidence that would give new impetus to the legislature. None of the parliamentary tools will address the problems at hand.

If nothing can be done, what should Sánchez do? Resign? What are they asking of him?

— We no longer ask anything of that government.

Will they not support any measure in Congress?

— Sánchez cannot be part of the solution because he is part of the problem. The situation of the transformative left is the result, on the one hand, of the judicial and media war waged against Podemos when it was founded, and also of the Sumar operation, which aimed to replace Podemos with a political leadership that would adapt to the limits set by the PSOE. Now the left must get back on its feet.

But it doesn't explain how. Do they want elections so the left can recover?

— We're focused on getting the left back on its feet. We now have a weaker left in Spain. Podemos previously led the government politically because we proposed all the most ambitious changes and measures, and we need to regain that power. We must reconnect with the people disappointed with Pedro Sánchez by walking the streets and participating in all social conflicts. The elections don't depend on us; Sánchez will make that decision on a partisan and personal level. We're ready for elections next month or in two years.

Going it alone? Do you rule out alliances with Sumar?

— We've always had an identity as a project to try to build more diverse candidacies. Pablo Iglesias's in 2015 and 2016 were the broadest of any leftist in all of Europe, from the Greens to the Communist Party.

Are you ruling out an alliance with Yolanda Díaz and Sumar?

— The issue is about the project, not the people. What campaign will we run? The one that says Spain doesn't sell weapons to Israel—what does Sumar say? When that's a lie... Or will we say that we have maintained most of our relations with Israel throughout the genocide, that we are complicit, and that it must be severed with the purchase of weapons, as we in Podemos say?

Are you considering an alliance with Esquerra in Catalonia or with EH Bildu in the Basque Country?

— It depends on the project. It's very sad to say this because of the respect I have for them, but right now we feel very alone in Congress. There are many things that, if Podemos doesn't say them, no one will. I don't understand why there's a different approach when corruption is coming from the PSOE than when it's coming from the PP.

And doesn't the fragmentation of the left benefit the right and the far right?

— I want the strongest possible left-wing candidacy, and I aspire to rebuild what we had in 2015. A political space that can stand up to the PSOE, because that's the way to accomplish many pending issues, such as regeneration, cleansing the security forces and bodies of state infiltration... which can be done in Spain if we have a government with a majority force like Podemos. What's driving the right and the far right forward in Spain is the PSOE's lack of responsiveness.

Are you willing to give up your position as the top candidate to support this left-wing candidacy?

— At this point, no one could put a better candidate on the table than Irene Montero.

What do you think about the financing agreement between the Generalitat and the State? Do you support respecting the principle of ordinality for Catalonia?

— We always say the same thing: we support all advances in fiscal and economic autonomy for Catalonia, to the extent that we believe this helps recognize plurinationality. What's going on? In my opinion, it's a mistake to open this debate like this and turn it into a trading of trading cards so that the Sánchez government can gain momentum.

So if the reform of the Lofca is brought to Congress, what will Podemos say?

— It depends on what it says. This debate should be conducted with a broader perspective, within the framework of tax reform and regional financing in general for all territories. Some, like the Valencian Community, have a huge deficit...

But you have not answered me whether the principle of ordinality should be respected.

— This debate must take place within the framework of a global debate. The wealthy must pay what they owe in Catalonia and in the Spanish state. We cannot answer the question with what we know. What we want to guarantee is a minimum income and to ensure that fiscal instruments are not used to do what Ayuso is doing in Madrid, which is turning it into a tax haven so that all the wealthy in Spain can register there and pay less tax.

Can we maintain that you will not support the law delegating immigration powers to Catalonia?

— We stand firm in that position. Supporting this delegation of powers endorses the institutional racism that governs all of Spain. We cannot endorse raids based on ethnic profiling, detention centers for foreigners, and immigration policies that constitute bureaucratic violence against migrants. We will not enter into a racist agreement imposed by a party like Junts, which is struggling to establish a sanitary cordon around Aliança.

As long as Podemos exists, there will be no transfer of powers during this term.

— This would mean that migrants in Catalonia face thousands more agents every day requesting their papers based on their skin color. In alliance with Catalan anti-racist civil society, which has actively and passively expressed this to us, we are asking that this not be done because it would entail an enormous recriminalization of migrants.

Why? This immigration policy is in effect in the State. If the State implements it, yes, and if the Generalitat does, no?

— Podemos will not vote in favor of that immigration policy. Podemos wants to repeal it, and Junts will propose repealing it, and then they'll have our votes. No one will defend the decentralization of powers more than I do, but not because of racist politics. Part of the agreement implies that from now on, the Mossos d'Esqua (Catalan police) can perform the functions of the National Police, conducting racist raids based on ethnic profiling, that is, stopping you for your skin color at the subway exit, while riding a bus, in the workplace... What the National Police does now would be done by the Catalunya de Esqua (Catalan police).

Podemos was in government, and the same immigration law existed. It has applied Spain's legal framework from its government.

— We vehemently opposed racist policies and the criminalization of migrants. That's why the PSOE never wanted us to have a Ministry of State, because everyone knows that if we had had a Ministry of the Interior or Justice, migrant policy in Spain would have changed significantly.

What dialogue do you have with Junts on this matter?

— There's no contact. We negotiate with the government, not with the parliamentary groups.

What do you think about the Montoro case?

— Feijóo won't do anything. The PP is the one that's corrupt and lies. When they take over institutions, they're never willing to work for the people; instead, they're real salespeople, in Montoro's case, for the gas companies.