Pep Mir: "The main motivation for corruption is personal enrichment, not party financing."

Following the plan presented by the Spanish president, Pedro Sánchez, to fight corruption, administrative law professor and transparency expert Pep Mir speaks to ARA to analyze the measures, which include the creation of a new independent public integrity agency, external audits of political parties, greater protection for whistleblowers, increased transparency, and a blacklist of corrupting companies. What is it?

— There are good measures that must be implemented, especially those related to preventing corruption through training and taking action against corruptors. It's very important that companies convicted of corruption cannot re-contract with the government. It also emphasizes the issue of controlling interest groups, which is also positive, but this doesn't strike me as a powerful anti-corruption measure.

Because?

— Because the corruption we're accustomed to seeing, in the press and in the courts, isn't corruption of economic sectors, but of specific companies and individuals. The policy of lobbying and interest group control serves to provide transparency about which interests exert pressure when making public policies, about who has acted on a proposal... This lobbying function isn't equivalent to corruption; it would trivialize it. Lobbying is a legitimate function exercised not only by economic interests but also by social groups. Everything related to the bidding for public works, bribery, etc., is left out.

So what is the key to preventing corruption related to public works?

— Above all, risk prevention and the promotion of integrity are essential. A cultural change is necessary. In the procurement and subsidy sectors, where there is a risk of corruption, preventive surveillance is essential. This independent agency for public integrity is a good measure in this regard.

But what difference can this make compared to the auditors already working in the ministries or departments of the Generalitat, the Court of Auditors, or the Anti-Fraud Office in Catalonia? Formal controls are now in place, and it seems they're never going to work...

— The plan envisions that this new independent agency will become the coordinating body for all oversight bodies, such as auditors, the Court of Auditors, the Transparency Council, the Anti-Corruption Prosecutor's Office, and so on. What's important is that they take preventive action.

What preventive actions can be taken?

— Training and awareness-raising, as well as protection for whistleblowers, are also included in the Spanish government's anti-corruption plan.

In the case of whistleblowers, there is now a state law, and those affected say they are not being protected.

— Yes, exactly, that's why it's important to delve deeper. In any case, it's a difficult issue: you have to first identify the reports that have merit and those that don't. For example, the first thing the Anti-Fraud team does is study the plausibility. But once a person has legal whistleblower status, the system still has shortcomings.

Because?

— During the debate, Yolanda Díaz [leader of Sumar and vice president of the Spanish government] said that all these measures will count when they're published in the Official State Gazette (BOE). Well, I say no, because the complicated part is their application, which goes beyond the Official State Gazette (BOE). The problem with the transparency law, for example, especially as it relates to the state and public sector companies, is that they are very reluctant to provide public information. Unlike what happens in Catalonia, there are resolutions from the state Transparency Council that are challenged by the State Attorney's Office. There's a much more reticent attitude than here, and this is the most important thing to combat. It's not done with laws or plans; it's done with training. Requiring all administrative staff to be trained, to know what the transparency criteria are, to ensure that there are favorable instructions... And the same logic applies to whistleblowers.

And do you think the corruption problem right now is political party financing? The European Commission spoke of a "high risk" in that area.

— Progress has been made in this area. In addition to the audits already provided for in the anti-corruption plan, I would like to improve the transparency of political parties in that regard.

He does not think that the problem of corruption in Spain is the financing of political parties.

I have the feeling that political parties currently have good public funding, something that didn't happen twenty years ago. Furthermore, they have income from members, from officials who make contributions, something that seems normal to me, even though many people find it scandalous [...]. I believe that party funding is not an urgent matter for the system. I think the main motivation for corruption is personal enrichment, not party funding. It's the main risk, although this doesn't mean I deny this second possibility; I'm just saying it's secondary. I can't imagine there are people accused of being altruistic to the point of risking prison just for the party.