An interview with Artur Mas, president of Catalonia and fourth candidate on the Junts pel Sí (Together For Yes) ticket

BarcelonaThe crowd in the vicinity of Barcelona’s Plaça de Sant Jaume radiates the kind of street excitement that anticipates an upcoming event: the Festes de la Mercè. Scattered among them is the expected inflow of tourists that wander about, unable to take in so much Barcelona. Yet the Palau de la Generalitat, the official residence of the President of Catalonia, is perfectly quiet. On these uncertain days, it seems quieter than ever; perhaps because it has imbibed so much history. Its walls will bear witness to Artur Mas’ desire to become the last president of Catalonia as a Spanish region.

What would you say in response to the statement by AEB and CECA (1)?

I would say that we will not stop paying and getting paid in euros. Catalonia has a developed economy, it attracts businesses and no end of banks will want to invest in it. Actually, the members of both associations --La Caixa, Banc de Sabadell, BBVA and Santander-- will want to remain in Catalonia, where they are competing intensely to grow, and will not cease to do so, because Catalonia is an attractive market. The public will receive a satisfactory service. The Spanish government shows a lack of responsibility when it resorts to using the banking sector, under huge pressure, as political artillery. The more they try to frighten us, the more they pressure us, the more votes Together For Yes will collect. This is the candidacy they are truly afraid of. They will be run over by Catalonia’s democratic strength.

The European Commission has insisted that a new state would have to reapply for membership to the EU.

A vicepresident spoke out to clarify what was meant. The truth is that there are no precedents and not a single article in the EU Treaty that deals with this sort of situation. The Commission and the member states find themselves at the rejection phase because they would be better off without this sort of headache and the best way to achieve that would be not to win a majority on September 27. What would the last phase be? Pragmatism, which is what they always resort to. Do not forget Germany’s reunification in 1990: in only six months, 16 million people became EU citizens. They took a shortcut.

This pragmatism that you often bring up, isn’t it wishful thinking rather than fact?

They are not waiting for us with open arms. But it is up to us that they eventually have this problem and have to resolve it.

The president of a pharma company said he was worried about the risks. Losing the euro and the possibility of having to pay import tax or losing the EU’s protection are concerns that must be addressed.

I cannot give you a definitive solution because, as I said, there are no precedents. But what should you do when you do not have such a solution? Well, you resort to common sense. We’re talking about the economy. It is not only in Catalonia’s interest to have economic protection, but also in Spain’s best interest. What percentage of Spain’s total exports travel through Catalonia? Does Spain want customs and tariffs on their products travelling to Europe? Does Europe want want their goods and services to have to go through customs in Catalonia and pay duties as they travel to Spain? That would make no sense at all. What about the 5,000 multinational companies located in Catalonia and all their employees? Should we throw a spanner in the works for them? There are 7.5 million people in Catalonia, 6.5 million of whom are European citizens, what will we tell them the next day? Will we tell them that they are getting kicked out of somewhere just because they believe in democracy and voted Yes to having the same rights as everyone else? Well, it turns out that Europe has never expelled anyone. Me, I don’t have a magic wand, but I believe in common sense.

Could you specify what you mean by pragmatism in the case of the EU? Can you picture Brussels telling Madrid to sit down and negotiate with Mas following a good result on September 27?

I don’t think they would do that, nor would we expect them to. If Together For Yes gets enough of a majority to steer this process, we will make a declaration to mark the start of the constituent process of the Catalan state and we will want to negotiate with Madrid. We will inform Brussels and the member states about out intention to negotiate. Should Madrid refuse to negotiate, despite us having a parliamentary majority, then at some point in time we will need to ask for some sort of mediation. Otherwise we would find ourselves in a permanent standstill, which would be negative for Spain, Catalonia and the EU member states.

You make a declaration at the start of the process. Madrid files a complaint with the Constitutional Court, they might resort to the additional powers recently granted to the Court, the declaration is declared void, you are suspended and the building of a new state grinds to a halt.

Only if we accept all those interventions by the Spanish state without lifting a finger ...

Fair enough. Let’s say you do not comply. Would you engage in any acts of disobedience?

It’s not about acts of disobedience. But if they say no to everything, then what we have is a permanent conflict. And who needs a permanent conflict, if we can avoid it? We do not want to turn our backs on Spain, disregard its public debt or deny it our solidarity. We want to do this in agreement with them and we realise that we will have to take on a number of liabilities that they hold for now, we are fully aware of this. We also know that we are entitled to a number of their assets, that we need to work with the EU to become the 29th member state and that requires negotiations. I do not want Spain to come out the loser, I honestly don’t.

If Spain loses 25 per cent of exports, 18 per cent of its GDP and €16bn worth of tax revenue, they will suffer.

But there is no need to lose all that at once, if there is a friendly negotiation. We should be able to sit down and discuss how solidarity with Spain will be shown by Catalonia.

Do you anticipate asking Catalans to stop paying their taxes to Spain’s Treasury and pay them to Catalonia’s instead?

I hope it won’t come to that because the economy is too important; it requires juridical security at all times. We have studied the necessary steps and I can guarantee that, if I’m president, nobody will find themselves in a personal conundrum that will cause permanent legal insecurity. Not at all. We will do this the right way.

Does that mean that you expect the Spanish government to do what they’ve not done in five years, simply because of the 27S election result?

That’s not what I’m saying. Regardless of the Spanish government’s predisposition, we will forge ahead with this pre-constituent process. I don’t mind admitting that I do not wish for a permanent conflict without a solution, because we’d all lose out. So far we have had a sufficient majority to do what we have done: to call a vote. The polls on September 27 are about finding out if we have a majority for independence. That’s what’s at stake.

Do you really think that the world and Europe understand the argument that we have no choice but to count seats in parliament because they wouldn’t let us have a referendum?

They ask me all the time. I’d be happy to swap you the elections for a referendum today. I’m aware that a majority of seats is not the same as a majority of votes. But, likewise, I realise that a majority of seats means that the process moves on and that is what we will do.

If you received a majority of votes, what would that extra bonus be used for?

It would show Brussels, Berlin, Paris, London, Roma and Washington that even in the worst possible conditions --let’s face it: doing this through an ordinary election is the worst possible way-- we have achieved a majority of votes. It would be very important for our legitimacy in front of the world and Europe.

Do you think it is possible?

I don’t think it’s impossible, but I accept it’s difficult.

Perhaps you might need the CUP to vote Yes or abstain in order to elect a president. CUP leader Antonio Baños says they would demand a broad-base coalition government to prioritise the independence roadmap “where CDC keeps a low profile and, if we are pushing for a national transition, it doesn’t matter who is president”. Would you accept these conditions?

I honestly don’t understand them. I even find them slightly undemocratic, actually. What do they mean by a low CDC profile? Together For Yes is a coalition of CDC, ERC, former PSC and Unió members, others from PSUC and eco-socialism ... Surely this deserves some respect? I don’t understand how someone who will not win the elections can possibly determine this, that and the other.

Do you realise that some people say “I want independence, but without Convergència” or “without Artur Mas”?

Well, that can’t be. You cannot exclude this and that. We must all be present.

Let’s say that in the negotiations for the election of a president the CUP is willing to vote for a Together For Yes candidate rather than yourself. Would you be willing to step aside?

I would not understand the condition. They might say: “to get our votes, you must understand that we wish to leave the EU and the euro”. Now, that’s a political position. We would say no to that, because it would be a huge mistake, but it is a political position on the independence process. However, ruling out a particular individual as a presidential candidate would be a mistake.

Do you take for granted that, should TFY win, you will become the new president?

It’s part of the TFY coalition agreement and at no point has it been questioned.

So why aren’t you at the top of the slate?

If we had done as always, the obvious thing would have been to run as the main candidate. But the question was: what should I do to help put together a broad coalition for Yes? The others have also done their bit. Mr Junqueras could have been the top ERC candidate and, instead, he has taken the fifth slot. Some of those who headlined CDC’s tickets in Girona, Lleida and Tarragona have dropped a few slots or simply aren’t running at all. The independent candidates that have joined us didn’t use to be in politics and they are playing a part in something that probably isn’t what they hope to do in the long term.

I suppose you must have heard that they have a file with your name on it. Are you hiding anything from the public?

They say there is. I’m not aware of it. And I’m not bothered at all. Naive types might believe it, as they did two or three years ago. But it will all amount to nothing. It’s all part of the 27S psychological warfare and dirty war: I’ve been through it before, as has Xavier Trias (2). We know what this is all about. They might be fabricating evidence, they are capable of that and more. They’ve done it before and it wouldn’t surprise me, in this dirty war. I hope you realise that when an innocent man is wrongly accused, proving his innocence is impossible. It’s the Holy Inquisition. Or the Far West.

What would you say to a CDC voter who feels that Unió is the old CDC?

Well, that voter wishes to stay where we are now.

No: Unió proposes adding an additional provision to the Spanish Constitution ...

That’s not going to happen. Have you heard any Spanish political leader who is even willing to discuss that?

They don’t want to negotiate independence, either.

Sure, but ultimately independence is only up to us, whereas changing the Spanish Constitution isn’t. The Catalan state is the last resort, because it would only depend on the will of the Catalan people. Depending on who you vote for on 27S, you are choosing to keep the status quo. And what do we have? Less self-government, the lowest public spending in Spain, a fiscal deficit of €15-16bn every year, Catalan-medium schooling under attack ... We are part of a state that has an unemployment rate of 20 per cent while in some European countries it is 4 or 5 per cent, and we are being dragged into this. It means that some unemployed people might actually find a job, like in Austria, Denmark or Finland.

Following a Yes victory of September 27, would you agree to begin talks with Spain to hold a referendum in exchange for putting the secession process on the back burner?

I doubt if that will happen. I’ve become skeptical about such things, after a few experiences. But I’m not uncompromising. If the Spanish state, which has the ability to make political and juridical proposals, decides to go ahead and make some, we will listen. But all we have on the table at present is criminal procedures that seek to suspend me and a reform of the law that regulates the Constitutional Court so that it becomes a public order tribunal, entitled to impeach elected officials.

What value do you attach to Obama’s words?

They are a formality. When I hear the president of the United States in the oval office saying that he wishes for Spain to be strong and unified, I guess that’s what he would say to any other foreign political leader: he hopes their country will remain strong. I suppose president Obama wishes that to everyone. How many European countries do we have today that weren’t independent a few years ago? Did the US collapse due to this new European reality? Did relations between the US and Europe break up? They’re actually negotiating a new bilateral trade agreement.

How damaging for Catalan independence are statements such as “Down with the Troika” or “We cannot have Berlin, Israel and the City as our allies”?

They do not help. These statements suggest that one doesn’t understand the rules of the club we are trying to join, provided we get a parliamentary majority. The members of this club of states are all different, but they all abide by certain rules. If you wish to become a state, you must follow the rules, even though they are sometimes tough. If we are not prepared to go down that road, then let’s not. But we must be aware of the consequences.

On the subject of your role in history, both Lluís Rabell and Ada Colau have admitted that they voted Yes-Yes on November 9 last year (3). Was the right to decide more inclusive than independence, then? Have you moved too fast instead of building up your strength?

I’ve wondered that myself and the answer I found was: how many more years could we have spent stating our right to decide without exercising it? We have gone through the motions and have lent our support to all sorts of governments in Madrid.

Your party has voted PP budget laws.

All the more reason to be where we are. The more they remind us, the more we can show that we have tried everything. We have helped every Spanish party in office, with and without a majority; we have tried with a new Catalan Statute --I myself played a role in it when I was the opposition leader to then president Pasqual Maragall. I was criticised for my agreement with then Spanish president Zapatero. But it was an agreement with a party that had an outright majority in Madrid’s parliament. We had a positive referendum in Catalonia, but the Constitutional Court arbitrarily struck down the new Statute. Then I warned them that things might go the way they’re going now, if we didn’t get a better fiscal deal. We have had four massive demonstrations with 1.5 million people taking to the streets. We won an election in 2012 and two thirds of the Catalan parliament are in favour of a referendum. Madrid refused to negotiate, they have taken legal action against myself and members of my cabinet for holding a non-binding vote on November 9 ... What else are we supposed to do? How much longer do we have to wait before we can try to exercise our right to decide and change the status quo, bringing about real change?

So, you don’t see yourself going down in history as the president who shrank pro-Catalan politics to separatism?

I don’t, because I’m convinced that once we have had a head count on September 27, we will know how many seats each side has. And there’s another important issue: I’m certain that when we get down to drafting a Catalan Constitution, nearly everyone will join in. After all, who would want to be left out? A Catalan Constitution should be drafted by those who will vote Yes on September 27, and those who will vote No. However, they’ll never get to write it, unless there is a Yes win.

Is CDC over now?

It needs to be refounded, but that doesn’t mean it is finished. It means that CDC needs a makeover and we have accomplished quite a lot so far.

How will CDC accomplish that? By becoming a social-democratic party, a liberal one ...?

To a point, that will depend on how the process ends. If it ends well and we are definitely on our way to creating a Catalan state, it’ll likely be a decision for other people in today’s CDC and other generations. How would I picture it? As a broad centre party, like plenty of parties that follow a European tradition, one that needn’t be strictly liberal by any means. CDC is, by definition, a convergence of people with different mentalities and origins. I see CDC as a broad centre party, concerned with growing the economy. A business-friendly party that will clearly argue for a proper distribution of wealth in Catalonia and equal opportunities. A party where the true centre (if there is such a thing) and the centre-left and centre-right can all meet. That’s how I see CDC: a broad centre party that can appeal to the people who identify with the notion of Catalonia which all of us have shared lately.

Where will you be in a year’s time?

In a year’s time I hope to be here, helping steer this historic process. I hope to be here, but not to sit in a comfy chair. It is far from comfortable, being here. It is exciting, but very uncomfortable. Very.

Ideally, the first line of the encyclopedia’s entry for “Artur Mas” should read ...?

“One hundred and twenty-ninth President of the Generalitat, last president of a regional Catalonia”.

______________

(1) N.T. On Friday the two main bankers’ associations in Spain issued a public statement warning that independence would have dire financial consequences for Catalonia.

(2) N.T. Former CDC Barcelona mayor was falsely accused by Spanish media of having a Swiss bank account in an attempt to ruin his reputation.

(3) N.T. Current Barcelona Mayor Ada Colau and alternative left leader Lluís Rabell voted Yes to independence on November 9, 2014, when a non-binding referendum was held in Catalonia, but have since distanced themselves from the pro-independence camp.