Diàleg entre Carme Forcadell i Jordi Sànchez: "We didn't read the country's reality well."

BarcelonaTwo former presidents of the ANC, Carme Forcadell and Jordi Sánchez, speak to ARA during the week of the Diada to reflect on the evolution of the country and the independence movement in recent years. During the conversation, they analyze why they believe that, eight years after 1-O, the pro-independence parties have lost their absolute majority in the Parliament and that the president, Salvador Illa, is in power. They also offer self-criticism when they have had responsibilities.

Will you attend this year's ANC demonstration?

— Carme Forcadell: Yes. In fact, we've gone every year. Besides, we haven't achieved our goal, so it's time.

— Jordi Sànchez: And we have the opportunity, if you're not in Barcelona, ​​to go to the other rounds [in Girona and Tortosa]. So there's no argument or excuse not to go.

But it's clear that the independence movement is now demobilizing. Why? What's your assessment?

— JS: It wouldn't be entirely accurate to compare 2025 with previous periods for two reasons. First, because the intensity of the mobilizations we experienced during the Process years were exceptional and unique in Europe, and we couldn't expect them to continue indefinitely. And second, because it's very different when you're in an open process, around October 1st, than when the finish line you yourself ended up provoking has passed and the objectives haven't been achieved, and there's a certain disorientation among people.

— CF: There's a difference between the mobilization before October 1st and the one after October 1st. Before November 9th and October 2017, there was a movement. in crescendoPeople saw that things were being achieved, there was a lot of desire and enthusiasm, and therefore, they mobilized en masse. That's not the case now. The post-October 1st protests were surely handled poorly. Obviously, we're all responsible. In any case, it's also normal that after such tense moments and thinking we were close to achieving something, if it's not achieved, people become demoralized afterward.

The president of the ANC this week, in an interview with ARA, said that the independence movement was in a state of absolute depression. Do you share this sentiment?

— CF: It's in a funk, I don't know if it's completely depressed because I'm an optimist by nature, so it's hard for me to say it's completely depressed, but it's clearly on the decline. You need a goal, you need a spark because the people are there. What's happening is that they're demobilized.

— JS: It's clear that when October 1st ends, hope is no longer present because repression, disorientation, infighting between political parties, and public disappointment set in. Therefore, it's true that we've gone from being an industry of hope to experiencing great collective disorientation. I also think we must acknowledge that it's true that the mobilization we once had isn't there, but the independence movement still has support, which isn't a majority but is certainly not insignificant.

What factors explain this demobilization?

— CF: I think there are many people who haven't voted. They're angry, enraged, and disappointed with the political parties, and their response to this disappointment is not to vote.

— JS: The division, the clashes between families or pro-independence organizations. People don't like this; they're tired of it and don't understand it.

— CF: We've gone from shaking hands across the country without asking what party you belonged to insulting each other and calling each other traitors if you don't share the same opinion, and that's done a lot of damage. I think this needs to be overcome and unity of action restored. Our adversary isn't another separatist, even if they don't share my opinion.

Is a change of leadership necessary in Junts and Esquerra?

— JS: I don't want to emphasize whether or not changes in leadership are urgent. This will come, and each organization and leader will decide in their own time. What we need is a change of attitude. It would be unfair to think that the problem we have today is reduced to two names: President Carles Puigdemont and the president of Esquerra (Republican Left), Oriol Junqueras.

In her case, Carme Forcadell did support a renewal of Junqueras's leadership.

— CF: But once Junqueras won the ERC congress, everyone supported Junqueras. The important thing is to strengthen the party and support what he won.

Unlike when you were leading the assembly within the movement, there's now a new player, the Catalan Alliance, the far right. Why is it growing?

— CF: I think the far right is on the rise because there are problems we haven't been able to address, such as security, immigration, social issues, housing... In other words, there are many issues we haven't been able to address or haven't addressed well. Therefore, there are some political parties that give very simple answers because they know they shouldn't govern. I'm convinced that if these parties had to govern, they wouldn't say many of the things they say because they can't be done.

— JS: It's very difficult to give formulas. I'm taking the liberty, since I don't have any political responsibility, of not making recommendations, but it's clear that this is a factor that will and is generating enormous contradictions. What we must do is ensure that it doesn't become a factor of division among those of us who share values of fraternity and democracy. That is, that we don't remain divided and divided over what response we should give them.

Did the Process prevent all these issues from being addressed?

— CF: No, I think the Process has nothing to do with it. It was precisely during the Process that many social laws were passed. The guaranteed income, the climate change law, or the law on the recovery of historical memory, for example. It has nothing to do with it. I'm absolutely convinced.

— JS: I think we can't look at this issue solely from a Catalan perspective. Let's look at Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Greece, even the Nordic countries. The problem is that the political actors and the political agenda of the 20th century, which was so important in consolidating welfare states, haven't been updated, haven't been brought up to date. And the world has changed. And Catalonia has changed radically in the last twenty years. Suddenly, there are 8 million of us, and the economic model that had allowed for social policies has been limited, apart from, in the case of Catalonia, the historic deficit and mistreated financing. And, indeed, neither the political parties, nor the institutions, nor the business sector, nor the associations have done their homework.

Should the independence movement play a role in establishing a pact in Madrid? The current president of the ANC complained about that role.

— JS: I think the key thing is for political parties to maintain consistency between what they say and what they do. Obviously, if you're in a narrative of maximum confrontation and rupture in Spain, it wouldn't make any sense, or much sense, to work on pacts. But it doesn't seem to me that this is the moment in which any party is defending its position. We, the pro-independence party, no longer have the institutional majority in Parliament. Therefore, the moment has changed. I think the problem isn't so much whether or not to reach an agreement with Madrid, but rather whether to explain it and explain it well. And there's also an urgency to build and defend the nation in its basic essence, not only in terms of language but also in issues related to infrastructure. So, obviously, independence, as the Assembly says, is the solution; many people believe it, but it's also not contradictory to move forward on other aspects in the meantime.

— C.F.: It's all part of the moment and the excitement. [In our time] The independence movement in Madrid had the role of saying it would be there for two months because we would soon be independent, or phrases like that. We also have to take into account the role that the political parties played at that time in Catalonia: it was different, there was unity of action, and they were working for 1-O and before that for 9-N. Now, the parties here aren't on that path. Therefore, I don't think the current situation of the independence movement can be attributed to what the parties are doing in Madrid; rather, what they're doing there reflects their general stance here.

As key players in the Process years, what mistake do you think you made?

— CF: Surely many. One was overestimating our strength or being very naive. I remember us saying that Europe would surely help us because it wouldn't allow its citizens to be beaten, or thinking that Spain wouldn't be capable of beating people who were calmly and peacefully going to vote. I didn't think the repression would be so harsh; I thought we'd pay a price, but that it wouldn't be that harsh. We didn't sufficiently appreciate the strength or what the unity of Spain meant for Spain, which overrode the law and the truth.

— JS: There was another, which I feel particularly bad about, which is not having properly read the reality of the country, where a portion of the population, a portion of Catalans, felt threatened by their very identity and their own security. We were very distracted here because all we had to do was watch television channels like La Sexta, Antena 3, Cuatro, TV1, TV2, all of which are manufactured in Madrid. There was a discourse that we believe is outdated, that of identity-based division. Many of us had a surprising opening on October 8th, in the mobilization of the sectors opposed to the 1-O referendum. This doesn't mean we had to change our proposal, but simply to be vigilant and explain that the 1-O referendum wasn't about some people, but about the entire country. We took it for granted, and that hurt us. And I also believe there's a third error, which is that the political parties took over the entire process, and the people's strength became completely subordinate, taking advantage of a certain disorientation following the repression in mid-October. They enter into a dynamic of confrontation, and there is an opportunity on October 3 that is not taken advantage of.

— CF: Yes, I agree. I wasn't president of the ANC. You were, and you can say that, but I think we wasted October 3rd. [...] Something I'm absolutely clear about now, and perhaps not so clear about when I was president of the ANC, is that there will be no independence without disobedience. We didn't work on or value this as I do now.

— JS: But the challenge remains in how we are able to rebuild a positive, exciting, and constructive discourse for the country, one that is inclusive of all sensibilities and backgrounds, and that rebuilds trust and pride.

— CF: We need to rebuild the country. We need to recover all the consensus we had around the language. The idea that education should be in Catalan has never, ever been questioned until now.

— JS: And rebuilding what's required is not only unity among the independence movement but also seeking all the common threads that unite Catalanism. There must be transversality around language, infrastructure, the country's growth, and social cohesion. That's what this country needs, and without that, it will be very difficult for the independence movement to advance.

Would you return to the political front line?

— CF: Not now, for the moment.

— JS: If you understand the front line as party policy, no. It's a covered stage.