Jordi Graupera: "If it depends on us, there will be an electoral repetition"

BarcelonaJordi Graupera (Barcelona, 1981) arrives at ARA in election mode and with just enough time to go pick up his daughter from school. He is convinced that this time he has an opportunity.

There is a recurring debate within the independence movement about whether or not to participate in Spanish elections. Why are you running?

— We are running on principle. Someone has to be able to represent the idea that one must say no to Spain, period. And so we are going to Madrid to boycott the pacts that Esquerra and Junts are making.

Will Alhora's deputies in Madrid take office and collect their salary?

— We will indeed take office and we will indeed be present there. We have not yet decided what we will do with the pornographic subsidies that the parties receive. And if it depends on us, remember that lottery commercial where there was the bald man who said: "What if it falls here?" Well, I want to be the bald man of Congress. And if it comes down to one vote and it is our vote, then we are heading to a repeat election.

So is your best-case scenario a caretaker government led by Pedro Sánchez? I say this because the government, albeit with limitations, would continue to function normally just as it did in 2015 with Rajoy. Wouldn't you simply be giving Sánchez more time in office?

— First of all, we will block the agreements of Junts and ERC. It is an absolute disgrace what has happened these last three years, what they promised in the electoral campaign and what has happened.

Then, if the investiture had depended on you three years ago, I understand that you would have voted against the investiture agreements and, therefore, there would be no amnesty?

— If it had depended on Alhora, there would have been an electoral repeat.

Then there would have been no amnesty.

— The fact is that the amnesty is in the interest of the Spanish state.

But there would have been an election rerun.

— Agreed. It is true that the amnesty benefits specific individuals, and for that reason we are happy for their lives. But the big problem with Catalan politics over the last ten years is that we have placed the problems of these people at the center of our public debate, so that the only thing that has been achieved is that they could be amnestied.

Would you negotiate better than Junts and ERC?

— There are those who argue that the strategy of Catalanism should be to regain negotiation tools with the State. I do not agree with this, but it is an argument. However, this strategy would benefit from Alhora entering Congress and boycotting the agreements. It would benefit from making it clear that there is a 'no' on the table. Because until there is a 'no' on the table, there can be no incentive to comply with the pacts.

So the idea is to vote no on everything, even in the case of a law like the ALS law, which Junts promoted, to support the people who suffer from it?

— This question... is a coercion.

It is how the political system works.

— Exactly. If you and I had a family member with ALS, we would naturally be willing to put whatever is necessary on the scale. But in the case of politicians, we must be aware that on the other side of the scale there is 22 billion in fiscal deficit, 17 billion euros of FLA debt that is not being repaid. Therefore, the question is not whether we are in favor of the ALS law, but whether the ALS law is worth 40 billion euros of the Catalan people's money. Apart from that, it is a law that was passed unanimously. It did not depend on Junts' votes

But they were the promoters of the law.

— We will say no and break with this coercion, which is always the same. Madrid always makes the same exchange, which is: we approve this law for you and, in return, I take something from you. It is unpleasant to say, because I have friends who are going through the ALS disease.

You have cited the FLA debt, of 17,000 million. If this were to go to a vote, would you vote yes, then?

— The answer is no. The example of Rodalies is flagrant.

Would you have negotiated it better?

— The conditions for negotiating anything with Madrid are not met. The best negotiator in the world would go to Madrid and fail. Why? Because Madrid has no incentive to keep its agreements.

Does it make sense for me to ask you if you are right-wing or left-wing if your plan is to vote no to everything?

— It makes perfect sense. First, because we do not intend to vote no to all institutions, only the Spanish Congress. We will run in the municipal and Catalan Parliament elections.

And how do you position yourself?

— We do not like people who say they are neither right-wing nor left-wing, but usually they are right-wing people, and that is not our case. We are pragmatic nationalists, with a sense of social justice, democrats and anti-xenophobic.

They say they are anti-xenophobic. Are you concerned about the growth of an openly xenophobic party like Aliança?

— Let me put it to you graphically. Most Moroccan children in Catalonia must have a poster of Lamine Yamal in their room. With which shirt? One from Barça or one from the Spanish national team? That is to say, the grandchildren of Moroccans will either be Spanish or they will be Catalan. And if they are Spanish, the country is finished. And if they are Catalan, the country has a future and has freedom in its hands. And that is our obsession.

In this sense, are you worried that Vox might reach the Spanish government?

— I think there is a type of far-right in the world that is prepared to moderate itself, but that in Spain is impossible. Basically, because the center does not exist. The Spanish center-right party is the PSOE.