Josep Oliu: "I hope I'm not the last president of Banc Sabadell."

BarcelonaJosep Oliu (Sabadell, 1949) welcomes ARA on Saturday at noon on the 22nd floor of the Torre Sabadell (today Diagonal Vertical), in the heart of Eixample, where he maintains his office as president of the Catalan bank. Given his casual attitude, one would not guess that the century-old bank is suffering a takeover bid from BBVA, which could put an end to its history and that it is entering its decisive phase. Oliu is optimistic and displays his proverbial good humor: of the Jaume Plensa sculpture he has, a true work of art, he says "the doll, the doll of the burning".

We're not used to seeing applause for a banker like the one we saw at the shareholders' meeting. How did you experience it?

— I'm not used to it. The truth is, I'm very happy. I was a little emotional; it was a sign that the shareholders were happy with the bank's progress and how we're handling the BBVA takeover bid.

Tell us one thing: in Spain and Catalonia, who benefits from the takeover bid?

— It's not going well for practically anyone. Our competitors. The loss of Sabadell is a loss for Catalan businesses, for small and medium-sized enterprises, which represent 80% of Catalan activity. And for the big ones: all the big business owners, even those listed on the stock exchange, tell us that if we're not there, who will serve them? The bigger ones give us loans, but Sabadell is what gives us the operational capacity and ease of day-to-day operations, they tell us. If the soul of the bank were to be lost, which is a Catalan soul, with a historical tradition of how to do banking, customers could be harmed. Other competitors would benefit. It always happens. In the merger of Santander and Popular, 40-45% of customers were lost in the following three years.

A survey we published on Monday showed that 4 out of 10 customers were willing to leave if the takeover bid was successful.

— Yes. The small companies tell me: "Man, this can't be true. It would be very serious for us if you cease to exist." Even large companies tell me this.

In the summer, a study was presented stating that the takeover bid would reduce lending volume, based on previous reports. BBVA says no. Who should we believe?

— Well, there are precedents. There would be less credit. And there would be less demand for credit. BBVA is referring to supply. But it's not just about credit. It's about service and flexibility. Competition can set a three-year credit extension, but this isn't verifiable and is a waste of time, because if a company stops doing well, they won't maintain its credit. The truth is that credit is lost, and something that worries me most: it loses dynamism. If a company lacks positive sentiment toward the bank, there may be discouragement and investment projects, which are what drive growth in the country, may be abandoned. And I'm worried because a large international bank doesn't operate in the same way as a local one. We have great support in the Valencian Community, in Murcia, or in northern Spain, in all the areas where we are a central bank for businesses, and that's why everyone has spoken out: they don't want this to happen.

In recent days, the entity has expressed its displeasure with the Competition Authority, citing expectations that the conclusions in Phase 2 would not be very favorable.

— I don't consider this matter closed. The Competition Authority still has a fundamental question on the table, which is what type of measures they will take, whether they are behavioral or structural. Looking at European Union regulations, it seems to us that this case would require structural measures, strong restrictions on the divestment of parts of the business. What we do ask is that they conduct an in-depth analysis, that they question the companies. What doesn't make sense is that they have dismissed the desire to plead and appear in public by many corporate entities. They should conduct an in-depth study in Catalonia, in the Valencian Community, in Alicante, and they will see how this is a problem. And if not, they should listen to public opinion and business organizations.

You have maintained that the problem is not only economic but social.

— Yes. Depending on the offer, I won't be able to explain to shareholders that the Banc Sabadell project will generate more returns than if they become BBVA shareholders. But, otherwise, I think it's not good for Spain. This is something politicians should reflect on. Spain should look at itself and say: "Hey, are three big banks enough for us?" We've been through a crisis, and in that crisis, 50% of these banks disappeared and were absorbed thanks to others who were able to take over. If only three banks remain in Spain, you have another problem: you only have three banks to solve crises, two of them with an international perspective.

Isn't that your model?

— These are different projects from ours. Because I, as a shareholder, would be investing half of my assets in a Mexican or Turkish bank. It doesn't make much sense for me, and it doesn't make much sense for the country either. Do we want financial companies to take savings from Spain and take them elsewhere? What matters to us is that there is a functioning bank here in Catalonia. And that there is one in the Valencian Community as well. This differentiates our project from BBVA.

How would Pedro Sánchez's government benefit from a scenario in which we go from four major banks to three?

— I don't think it would do him any favors. The government knows this perfectly well. This doesn't benefit anyone.

We are talking about it again Banesto solutionThat is, they buy, keep 50, 51%, and don't merge. Is this viable?

— The disappearance of Banc de Sabadell is the same. I don't see it as something that would work for us or for Catalan businesses. It's BBVA with Catalan marketing. They already had the opportunity to do this with Banca Catalana, CatalunyaCaixa, Unnim, and it doesn't seem to have worked. I think that when you take away a bank's soul, it's almost the same as a merger, and for the shareholder, a merger would probably always be better to maximize synergies.

And what can you tell us about the price of the takeover bid?

— We don't know yet, but at the current price, there's a negative premium. Who is the rational shareholder who would take this premium? Perhaps one who says, "If they give me money, I'll take it." But they don't. Even for me, as president of Banc de Sabadell, it's not easy to say whether the offer is good or not. Because the only thing I have to measure it is the value of BBVA shares. And here, it's simply a demand for unconditional support for an international banking project, mostly in emerging countries, that seeks to offset these risks by making Banco de Sabadell shareholders complicit.

They'd have the government's choice. Do you think the government should halt the operation?

— With the government, I will simply be at your disposal to tell you about the things I think can help the country, both with the Spanish government and the Generalitat. You can object, you can stop the operation, you can stop the merger. This is not my role. My role is one of transparency, in the sense that I would like everything to be in the prospectus when our shareholders have to decide what is best. If there can't be a merger, it's essential that you say so because BBVA told me it was generating synergies of 800 million, and without a merger, it's impossible. If the CNMC's limitations are on conduct for three months or five years, or if they mean that a piece of the Catalonia business must be sold. All of this gives me a value and is absolutely essential information for the prospectus. Also, the negative synergies, because there will be clients who will leave for the competition. I know the value of mine. The value of the other must be clearly seen.

Do you think Salvador Illa's government is doing enough to defend Sabadell?

— It's true that Banc Sabadell is very special and that, looking to the future, Catalonia needs strong institutions and companies rooted in our culture. And anything that strengthens Banc Sabadell strengthens Catalan companies. I believe the president is very clear about this. I have great confidence that he will act, within his means, to defend us. This is what I understand. But the president has the power he has, the government has the power it has, and the market also has the power it has.

If the operation doesn't go ahead, will your path be solo or with someone else?

— First of all, if this happens, there will be a cocktail party at the next meeting [laughs]. Second, if this happens, it will be a huge boost to the self-esteem of all Banco Sabadell staff, and this will benefit the shareholders. And I think it would be a huge boost to the self-esteem of the Catalonia project.

But alone or accompanied?

— To start with, alone. Our project is what I've always said: we are a Catalan bank, made here, with a specific culture. We've been moving away from that culture for many years, and over the last few years, we've been adding other regional banks by agreement. We want to be a business bank throughout Spain, and incorporating other banks in different regions of Spain is part of our project. We're open; the regional banks are very solvent, but at some point they may decide that the project is more substantial, and we'd be willing to consider it.

At ARA, we've been closely following the departure of corporate headquarters. It was painful and traumatic for many people, and in January we received the news of their return. How did you experience it?

— Were you surprised? I asked myself that every year. Always. I wondered what conditions had to be met, and this year they were met. The important thing is that I perceived that our refrain wouldn't suffer any commercial losses, because people would understand. And that's what happened. Right now, Catalonia is in the situation it is in, there's the presidency of the Generalitat (Catalan government), and Catalonia is beginning to look ahead with its companies. And, obviously, there was the takeover bid, which helped the rest of Spain understand that we were coming back here. We spoke with all the political parties, and they all told us that they would understand and that no one would oppose them.

It is a decision that carries a lot of weight.

— Yes, the fact that we and the La Caixa Foundation have come is important; they are two fundamental institutional pillars of Catalonia.

Would La Caixa have returned if you hadn't?

— I think so, but maybe the timing He came a little more driven. Starting these things is very difficult. Leaving was a very different situation, a dramatic one. But once you leave... what we've done is very difficult. Now we hope we've done it for the best, not because we can't hold a general meeting in Sabadell again in four days.

Do you think the government owes Sabadell a favor after this change of headquarters?

— I don't think it went wrong for the government, but we didn't do it so they would have to do us a favor.

Are you worried about going down in history as the last president of Sabadell?

— I haven't thought about it. But don't think about it. When you get a big round of applause, you think about when there was such criticism... I hope I'm not the last president of Banc Sabadell.

You've been at the top of the bank for 25 years. Are you thinking about succession?

— Yes, 25, four of them in a theoretically better situation: if it weren't for the takeover, I'd be a proper non-executive chairman. Now you'll ask me when I plan to fold.

That's how it is.

— This is like returning to Catalonia. Look, when the conditions are right, but today I don't know what those conditions will be [laughs].