Francesc Garcia Rafanell: "We Catalans are victims of our geographical location, between two very powerful states, and we're not to blame for everything. But we lack a culture of power and have been somewhat naive."

GironaThe lawyer and humanist Francesc Garcia Rafanell (Barcelona, ​​​​1951) will present his latest book on Tuesday, June 3 at 7 p.m. at the 22 Bookstore in Girona We, the Catalans (Editorial Oliveras), in which he presents an analytical exposition from his point of view on the behavior of Catalans at different moments in history. Previously, Garcia Rafanell has written The discomfort of existence –which is now translated into English–, which is a philosophical essay on the origin of life, consciousness and criticism of dogmatic religions, and The Spain that could be respected by all, perhaps, which analyzes the Spanish state model from a critical and democratic perspective.

A We, the Catalans Analyze the historical vicissitudes that have affected Catalonia from the end of the 8th century to the present day. How do you view this trajectory?

— It's a nation without a state, one that has lived between two very centralized states that have abused it, with which it has fought, joined, married, divorced, etc. It's a country of transit that hasn't let it do much of what it wanted. But Catalan has endured until now. I have two grandchildren, and one day they were asked in a town in Baix Llobregat: "What am I?And the oldest, who was 8, naturally responded that they were Catalans, even though neither my daughter nor her husband are particularly Catalanist. This makes me think that the Catalan identity endures, despite the defeats in almost every war we've fought in.

How do you see it now?

— We have one and a half million Catalans who can't vote because they aren't registered. The day they are, we'll see what happens in this country. We must integrate these people no matter what and make them see and understand the meaning of being Catalan.

If not, can Catalan identity be diluted?

— I would say that Catalan society has incorporated all the immigration from the rest of the State that came in the 60s. Many ofThe other Catalans, As Francesc Candel wrote, they're in pro-independence parties. But now it's full of Romanians, Arabs, and South Americans. How do we integrate those people? Because if not, Catalan identity could be diluted. But so far, the Catalan identity remains alive and well.

How do you view these latest waves of immigration?

— There are people who are against it and say, "I don't want them to come." Well, you don't want them to come, but no one wants to go to work on the roads; there are only newcomers working there. And there are many South Americans working in the bars, so Catalans don't want to work as waiters either. So, who will do these jobs? There must be immigration, that's indisputable. What we must do is incorporate it; otherwise, the Catalan identity will lose strength. Now, when those people can vote, I don't know what will happen. Therefore, the administrations must take decisive action so that they understand that if they get involved in the Catalan issue, they will rise in social status, not only for the defense of Catalan culture and language, but also have more opportunities for upward mobility.

How do you see the Catalans?

— I believe Catalans are tolerant, respectful, hard-working, responsible, and that we must move the country forward in a complex situation where there are no short-term solutions. I also think that most people have a secular view of life, and I'm glad. The fact is that the standard of living in society is deteriorating because we're unable to retain talent and, instead, we're forced to import people who come to work as waiters or wash dishes. Meanwhile, we're in a state, and those in power must ensure that people are as well off as possible, regardless of whether Catalan society is capable of requesting a referendum.

Let's take it one step at a time. You emphasize secularism as a positive value.

— I come from a super-Catholic, Francoist family. When I was 18, I attended an event at the Palau de la Música with Blas Piñar, where they brought my father and his brother. My uncle later became a Supreme Court justice. I come from this family, and it took me years to break away from it. I wrote a book called The discomfort of existence And there I defend science and, therefore, dismiss the whole religious theme. But this has been a very long process.

And how do you view the religiosity of a significant portion of immigrants, what is the Muslim population like?

— Now there are those who say they don't want fundamentalists in the mosques here, and I don't want them either. We've left behind National Catholicism; it's been very difficult for us to leave it behind because it's not just about going out and automatically having the right to assembly and the right to demonstrate; it's about ridding ourselves of all feelings of sin and guilt. And now these people come and do the same thing they did here 60 years ago, bringing religion here to us. Listen, you can believe in whatever you want, but in your own home. If we're talking about Opus Dei, which I also talk about in the book, I'm completely against it. These are sects. I believe in civil life and in religion. Everyone can believe what they want, with respect, but we're not going back to Catalonia where National Catholicism put us, which has been very difficult for us to get out of here.

He's also talked about society calling for a referendum, but Spain's position has always been completely against it, and many people believe the independence movement is dead.

— It's funny to me because in Spain they say: "The independence movement is over, there are no more independentists here. But their refusal to allow a referendum to be held is directly proportional to the fear they have of losing it. For me this is crystal clear. If they're not afraid of losing it, why don't they let us do it? They don't let us do it? They can tolerate it even if we consider this here, the homeland, the disintegration of Spain and all these things they explain. But sooner or later they'll have to ask and they'll have to allow it.

Do you believe it?

— I can't understand how this isn't possible in the 21st century. Thirty years ago, they held a referendum in an advanced country like Canada, and nothing happened. The Supreme Court of Canada said, "If you win, the government of Canada is obliged to negotiate with you." Try taking this to the Spanish Supreme Court or the Constitutional Court and see if they'd say that. But who wants to leave Canada? No one. Spain, for me. per seIt doesn't bother me if things are done right, if they invest in science, if you're democratic, if they respect the Catalan ethos. I wouldn't have any problem with a Spain like this, but people want to leave Spain because it's deeply in debt; it's a country up to its neck in debt. And that's why the people who leave their money don't want disruption in Spain and Catalonia; neither does the US, nor Europe. Therefore, Catalans must do things very intelligently, quietly, and keep working because nobody wants disruption and fuss. That's my vision.