Unai Sordo: "Being more productive while earning less is a recipe for failure."

MadridAt the entrance to the CCOO headquarters in Madrid, there is a plaque marking the birthplace of the union's current general secretary, Unai Sordo (Barakaldo, Basque Country). The immense plaque CCOO, of the Basque Agustín Ibarrola Goicoechea (1930-2023), presides the hall contrasting with the gray concrete. "Ibarrola was a much-loved figure," Sordo recalls. The union leader receives ARA shortly after Junts announced its veto of some of the Spanish government's laws.

What do you think of Junts' decision?

— This is a desperate attempt to address the problems of those who don't know how to confront their issues, which include a loss of institutional power in Catalonia, the difficulty of managing the post-independence period, and the perceived threat from the far-right pro-independence movement represented by Alianza. They are opting for a scorched-earth policy, avoiding any shared responsibility, believing this will stem their loss of votes. This strategy is detrimental to Catalonia and prevents measures that even their electorate values, such as reducing the workday.

Has CCOO tried to act as a bridge?

— On labor and socioeconomic issues, we have held discreet meetings with key management members. They assured us, for example, that they had not yet decided their position on reducing working hours. But these things haven't materialized. It's not the role of any union to tell a political party what to do. In any case, it's part of the context.

But in this context, is it possible to make progress on issues that have resurfaced, such as dismissal reform?

— We are aware of the difficulty in securing a parliamentary majority to amend the dismissal law, and this applies not only to Junts but also to the PNV. But to make progress, the debate must first begin. Establishing a discussion about whether dismissal is appropriate or not is a battle that must be fought. Severance payments are not in accordance with the law, they do not discourage the use of dismissal, and there are grounds for the unions' strategy to consider a change linked to legal uncertainty. We must try to ensure that employers prefer amending the law to remaining in a legal limbo.

Negotiations to raise public sector salaries have resumed. Will they be with employers' associations to negotiate a new National Collective Bargaining Agreement (AENC)?

— We must do it. The current agreement expires in December and has yielded good results. The problem is that inflation has meant that some workers, despite wage increases, have lost purchasing power. It is essential to continue boosting wages, especially those in the middle and lower-middle income brackets.

How ambitious will they be?

— The proposal will be above inflation forecasts. Companies can afford it.

How much should the minimum interprofessional wage [SMI] increase?

— It must be ensured that it remains at 60% of the average salary. But it is even more important to avoid a widespread business practice: passing on increases in the minimum wage to salary bonuses. In many cases, the minimum wage serves as the benchmark for base salary, but certain bonuses have been used to reduce the increase, so the net salary has not risen as much, or at all. If the bonus system is not modified, we will not agree to an increase in the minimum wage. 

Wages have risen and the Spanish macroeconomic context is favorable, but there seems to be a contradiction with the perception among some citizens that their economic situation is not improving. What's going wrong?

— Some prices have risen sharply, eroding the incomes of more modest families. Basic goods, food, but especially housing prices. Someone earning €1,500 net, even if their salary has increased by 4% in recent years, loses purchasing power if housing has risen by 18%. The deterioration of public services also contributes, ultimately pushing families towards the private sector. This is the trap of lowering taxes: it forces people to spend more, shifting their earnings to corporate profits.

Does current productivity allow for wage increases?

— Productivity per hour worked in Spain is increasing. Total factor productivity is another matter. It's like cholesterol; it can be good or bad. If the goal to improve productivity is to produce more while earning less, we disagree. It's a scheme doomed to failure. I believe that to improve productivity, wages must be increased because companies that are productive by exploiting people and underinvesting are discouraged. If productivity improves because of better systems, investment in digitalization and machinery, or because companies achieve better economies of scale, then we agree. We also need to discuss how this improvement is distributed between capital, investment, and workers.

A clash is emerging between the future prospects of young people and their salaries, particularly regarding pensions.

— There's an attempt to create an intergenerational conflict by linking pensions to the low wages of young people. This is absurd because the two are completely unrelated. Forty percent of pensioners receive €1,000 or less. Sometimes it seems as if a pensioner is a privileged person living in a villa in Marbella. That's not the case. Young people's wages will be higher or lower depending on how well they organize themselves. Then there's another issue to consider: the increase in life expectancy, the arrival of... baby boom Retirement and higher pensions are key because those who receive more will generate a significant flow of public resources. Improving public services will not come from reducing pensions, but from an ambitious fiscal policy.

We see constant clashes between the CEOE (Spanish Confederation of Employers' Organizations) and the Ministry of Labor. What is the relationship like with the unions?

— The tripartite negotiation has yielded very good results. Now, the CEOE (Spanish Confederation of Employers' Organizations) knows that there could be a right-wing parliamentary majority, and the incentive to reach agreements is minimal. Regarding the reduction of working hours, the employers' association moved in that direction, and it worked out well for them thanks to the Junts (Together for Catalonia) movement. This is where a clash of narratives arises. It's not that the Ministry and the CEOE suddenly get along worse. The alternative, for the unions, is to strengthen the bipartite framework with the employers' association. They said they agreed to the reduction of working hours, but not by law, rather by collective agreement. Now that we are going to negotiate a National Collective Bargaining Agreement (AENC), we will be able to verify this. In these bipartite spaces, we must also ask the employers' association what its position is on housing and whether it is aware that it is the biggest economic problem for companies.

That's why they say that the bereavement leave and palliative care Are they a "whim"?

— Given the difficulty of reaching agreements, announcements, in this case from the Ministry [of Labor], are becoming increasingly important for establishing a political profile, and these are the very announcements the CEOE (Spanish Confederation of Employers' Organizations) uses to talk about absenteeism or make statements like this one. They don't want to move forward, believing there might be a change in the political cycle. I don't think this attitude helps the autonomy of the social partners.

How do you feel about the focus being placed on absenteeism? Is it being conflated with sick leave due to mental health issues or other reasons?

— We will not accept any narrative that claims that sick leave is being irresponsibly increased in Spain so that workers can fraudulently claim absences. Given this, are temporary disabilities, their duration, and their cost increasing? Yes, but this is due to many causes, and to mitigate them, we need to identify them. The deterioration of healthcare, which needs improvement; the increase in the average age of workers, which necessitates establishing reduction coefficients to allow for early retirement; if 35% of fatal workplace accidents are due to a cause not identified in the risk prevention plan, the quality of prevention needs improvement; and the work-related stress that arises when a dependent person becomes ill and the worker has to leave their job because there is no one to take responsibility, because the State has abandoned public policies in this area. The solution is not to demonize those who take sick leave.

The Internship Statute has just been approved. Should unpaid internships be completely prohibited for students?

— We need to distinguish between different approaches. It has been shown that dual training, in which part of the training takes place in a workplace, works. The problem is that historically [the practices] have been used as a subterfuge because they had workers who, for a time, were engaged in activities unrelated to training and who even replaced salaried employees. This is what needs to be addressed. A series of rights, such as reimbursement of expenses, must also be established. It's one thing to not charge for training, and another for it to have a cost.

The Rider Law It's already up and running, but companies like Uber Eats are under scrutiny for misusing it. Do they want to fight it?

— The perverse use of the platform economy and artificial intelligence is the great Trojan horse for labor rights. The strategy of these companies is not only to pay lower wages, but also to dismantle the protective frameworks of labor law. The misuse of self-employment and the fetishization of platforms and algorithms that overrides labor rights are what must be combated. And the Rider Law It established two very powerful elements: the presumption of employment status of the riders and the access of workers' representatives to the algorithms.

Is it cheap for companies to break the law?

— This is the underlying problem, and detecting fraud isn't always easy. In the workplace, opacity is often absolute. When these practices are discovered, the penalties must be absolutely dissuasive. It's not just about issuing fines, but about preventing these practices from happening in the first place. The same applies to dismissal. It's not just about the cost, but about making it sufficiently dissuasive so that the company doesn't apply it improperly.

Artificial intelligence is one of the biggest challenges facing the job market. Do you sense any concern? How is the union addressing this?

— Yes, it is worrying. In the past, there was a supervisor in charge, and things could be discussed. Now, algorithms can make organizational decisions, using employee data, about who to promote, hire, fire, or what the work pace should be. For example, if an algorithm records absences without any explanation, and a worker misses a few days due to menstrual pain, it's very easy for the algorithm to end up determining that if someone needs to be fired, it has to be her because her performance is slightly lower two days a month. When a person did this, we knew how to react; if a machine does it, it seems like it's gospel. It sounds dystopian, but it's happening. There needs to be worker intervention and public oversight.

How does the rise of the far right affect trade unionism?

— From the moment they try to make workers believe that economic or social problems are due to the intrusion of people or phenomena that threaten them—whether because they are workers who have come from other parts of the world, or because they are women workers demanding their place in the company on equal terms—the far right appeals to old reactionary hierarchies and tries to prevent them from taking root. People end up voting for someone who promises easy solutions to complex problems and demonizes those below them, instead of seeing that it is the interests of the powerful that are deteriorating living conditions.

What is CCOO doing in response to anti-immigration rhetoric?

— It is necessary to rebuild safe spaces for the majority of society from the perspective of guaranteeing rights. People must understand that the phenomenon of immigration is irreversible in Spain. If there is no migratory flow, the country will stagnate. And it is about ensuring that they have the same rights and obligations so that companies do not use them as a factor in the deterioration of working conditions for everyone. This is also part of union action: restoring the certainty that you will have a good education, good healthcare, a good pension, good unemployment protection, and a good care system, and countering the idea that your situation has deteriorated because people have come from abroad. No, your healthcare system has deteriorated because there is not enough investment for an aging population.

And how prepared is the trade union movement to face this?

— It depends on what you compare yourself to. We are living through a historic moment in which some social movements are reactive, such as those for the right to housing or the denunciation of the genocide in Palestine. The union is part of these spaces. But building an alternative to reaction is also a process. Unionism is rooted in everyday action. And where do we stand here? We could be better, but no one is better off than us. CCOO has more than a million members, 112,000 delegates, and negotiates collective bargaining agreements… Unionism is not omnipotent. In some matters, it intervenes directly, and in others, it acts as just one more agent, but this is not a contradiction.

Have you been afraid of being more accommodating to a progressive government than to a right-wing government?

— A government that increases pensions by only 0.25%, implements labor reforms to lower wages, or freezes the minimum wage is not the same as a government with which you agree to an increase in the minimum wage, a labor reform that reduces temporary employment, or an indexation of pensions to inflation. This isn't a matter of complacency; it's a matter of fulfilling the policies we've agreed upon. The level of autonomy of the CCOO (Workers' Commissions) with respect to this or any other government is absolute.

Do you trust that they will present new state budgets?

— It's their obligation. They also have to explain which budget items need strengthening. If there isn't a majority afterward, they explain. This is also an exercise in democratic education.

The Junts spokesperson in Congress, Miriam Nogueras, referred to CCOO as a "Spanish union that does not represent Catalonia." What do you think?

— Talking is free, and some people enjoy being disrespectful. CCOO and UGT are the largest unions in Catalonia. We represent 40% of the workforce and have a broad reach with 150,000 members. Offenses are inflicted by those who can, not those who want to. If the intention is to provoke, it should be done with sportsmanship. If there's a xenophobic view of Catalonia behind it, then I understand that any organization with ties to the central government isn't considered Catalan. If that were the reason, we'd be talking about an ideological perversion.

This is his third and final term. Does he see himself in politics after that?

— Right now, I don't see myself anywhere. The moment is so intense that I don't have time to think about it. If you ask me this question in two years, I won't say I won't be thinking about it, but the CCOO congress was in June.