Elvira Dyangani Ose: "We want the MACBA to be like the Tate Modern or the MoMA, but for that we need the budgets and different governance."

BarcelonaThe director of the Macba, Elvira Dyangani Ose, receives the ARA award in the middle of the installation of the exhibition Projecting a Black Planet: The Art and Culture of Pan-AfricaA co-production with the Art Institute of Chicago, for which she is also one of the curators, will be one of the year's major exhibitions in Barcelona and the centerpiece of the museum's thirtieth anniversary celebrations. After four years in the position, and taking advantage of the anniversary, Dyangani reflects on the museum's present and future. "When I'm asked if my museological project was to bring coloniality, LGBTQ+ individuals, and other histories into the museum, I say yes, but not because they are the main focus, but because we include these individuals and these episodes that were discriminated against and made invisible in the history we all know. We don't shy away from the idea that..."

The museum's expansion has drawn opposition from some thirty organizations. And historically, the MACBA has been criticized for its lack of connection to the neighborhood. What would you highlight about how the museum's relationship with the Raval has been approached?

— In 2022 we launched the project Mobile garden in the Convent of the Angels as part of the institution that integrates public programs, education programs, and the Kitchen, to consolidate the direct relationship with the neighborhood. We understand that the museum, apart from the institutions that form the consortium's governance, must have a direct relationship with it, and it does, through the structure of these programs. We serve the people of Barcelona and, of course, the Raval neighborhood. I talk a lot about the vocation of public service, which I had always understood within the context of Barcelona in the 1990s, but now, since becoming director, I understand it even more. Since I arrived, conversations with the community have never stopped. We have spoken with all the members of the associations and have maintained the distinction between what is the responsibility of the museum and what is the responsibility of the authorities. This division of reference has helped us to interact with the residents, to respect their decisions, to listen to them, and, above all, to carry on this relationship. Mobile garden It has been a mechanism through which this direct relationship has been generated in the museum and, in addition, it is the space that we give to the entire community so that they can start working on aspects that interest them.

It makes the gap between the museum's responsibility and that of the authorities very clear. It reminded me that a few months ago Ingrid Guardiola left her position as director of Bòlit, exhausted by the bureaucracy.Is the management of the MACBA equally overwhelming?

— I greatly admire Ingrid. The rapport she forged with the Bòlit team... I've felt a strong connection not only at the MACBA but also in previous experiences at the Tate Modern, the Creative Time organization, and the Prada Foundation. Traditionally, the MACBA is a place under considerable pressure; it needs renewal, it needs to reinvent itself in terms of governance. At the very least, it should try to highlight the need to change the governance of its institutional framework in relation to the present and future of museums.

Where should I start?

— If we need to place much greater emphasis on affiliation relationships with corporations and individuals, this must be possible both within the museum and in other ways. We must consider whether the museum's ownership structure provides it with full management capacity, because sometimes the institution's structure prevents it from engaging with the world and a particular social, cultural, and ethical reality. MACBA is turning thirty. Is the institution's current legal structure capable of sustaining MACBA for another thirty years? Perhaps not, and I believe this is a question worth reflecting on for the future.

Do you think the structure of the MACBA should be more flexible and more pluralistic?

— Yes, there should be greater flexibility in management. For example, on the museum's board, there are few people from the sector who aren't connected to one of the consortium members. The consortium has administrative representation, from the public administration. We should also have independent staff, and also staff from outside the international sector. I always say that we must work within the institution as if the world we demand of others already exists. If you want to work with people who don't have decent working conditions, how can you help them so they don't have to have a precarious relationship with you as employees? I think this is difficult to resolve within our current structure, for example, even though we make incredible efforts to achieve it. And something I do want to make clear is that the MACBA team is extraordinary in this regard and works very hard on this. It's essential to have much more pluralistic governance, and stakeholders in the sector should have a greater presence. There needs to be a renewal of governance in terms of the legal structure, so that, for example, people who want to support us financially can also receive tax benefits. All of these things are essential for the museum's future management to be agile. We want to be like the Tate Modern or MoMA, but for that we first need budgets and also a different kind of governance.

Will the proposed relationship with the neighbors be reflected in the expansion in any way?

— We also worked to make the building a much more porous space than Richard Meyer's architecture could have been. Our design is a program in which the plaza extends into the museum, becoming a gallery: it transforms into a safer arcaded plaza for families and children waiting to enter the school in the mornings. The idea is to maintain the same opening hours as the Plaça de les Caramelles and Plaça de Joan Coromines. And upstairs there will be a garden area, which will also be free to access. The Harquitectes studio interpreted this very well: they worked with the existing structures and understood that the architecture wasn't just the Convent of the Angels, but also that of the city and the urban community that inhabits the space. So, instead of creating a sculpture garden, we transformed the upper level into a garden and a space for contemplation. I always gave them the example of the Southbank Centre in London, which has an incredible garden on top, a place to have coffee and relax.

With the expansion of the museum, the budget will also have to grow.

— We have been asked for reports and we have submitted them, and this month we will discuss what is necessary to open and what will be necessary until 2028. It is crucial that there is a shared responsibility for reflection, of course, on our part, in terms of the program and management of the museum, but also on the part of the institutions and administrations that support us, a level that we must have first and foremost.

When he arrived at the MACBA, he said he wanted to create a "decolonized, decanonized, and dehierarchized" museum. He also spoke of being more inclusive. Has he achieved this?

— Regarding cross-functionality, when I arrived I suggested to the public administrations and the entire consortium that they make an organizational change, and we ended up with a much more robust organizational structure. This also meant starting to work with the teams in a more cross-functional way and changing the museum's work culture, which was primarily departmental, but this compartmentalization has been de-hierarchized. The museum operates with a level of cross-functionality that it didn't have four years ago.

Has the dehierarchization also been noticeable in the content?

— Yes, for example among the documents and works, as can be seen in the exhibition Projecting a black planetand in previous projects such as Song for many movementAnother point is the hierarchy between Catalan and international artists: I believe 2024 was the most Catalan year in the history of the MACBA. If I'm wrong, I'd be happy to be corrected, because that means we've done things right, with the same strength as proposals like the exhibition we dedicate to Mari ChordàThis also meant working with another museum in the region, the Tarragona Art Museum. This dehierarchical approach has also been noticeable in... the exhibition by Jordi Colomerwho has worked incredibly hard on an imaginary world about the awareness of being a citizen and imagining the formulation of urban space and that of Daniel Steegmann Mangrané, which represents a generation of Catalan artists who had very rarely visited the museum.

How do you see the Macba on its 30th anniversary?

— It now has a more cross-disciplinary team and a reality much more connected to local issues. The MACBA has always been criticized for being like an ivory tower, but I think we've made the museum increasingly porous and more humble. And it must be connected to the surrounding area, like the project we'll undertake to expand the collection to some twenty museums across the country. The thirtieth anniversary is a moment of great excitement, given the museum's contribution to Barcelona's diverse history. I think of the campaign the Barcelona City Council launched to write "I am from Barcelona" in all the languages spoken in the city, and we should be very proud to be in a Barcelona that recognizes itself in its plurality. We want to be a space in the public sphere that represents that plurality. If there's one thing we want from the expansion, it's for it to give the people of the city the opportunity to understand that all of this belongs to them, that the MACBA collection belongs to the city of Barcelona and to all its visitors. One of the things I said in the project I submitted for the competition to direct the MACBA was that the founding of the museum was not only the signing of the agreement, but also the desire to have a space that represented the art of Barcelona and that represented the world through the experience that art provides to visitors to the city.

There is a lot of talk about decolonizing museums, but attempts to do so are often controversial. Why?

— There's a reluctance to acknowledge that the relationship with so-called "others" hasn't been equitable. For example, my family is Ndowé. Living on the coast of Equatorial Guinea, the Ndowé had more contact with the Spanish colonists than the people inland. This is a common misconception; nobody likes being called racist, but we must reflect on the fact that structural racism remains a part of our daily lives and affects us all. Furthermore, history hasn't been able to restore a spirit of reparation, which isn't just about replacing the pieces, nor will it ever be, because it's an unpayable debt, as the writer and philosopher Denise Ferreira da Silva said.

So, do you think it's possible to carry out these decolonization processes in museums?

— We need to decolonize the decolonization of museums, because clinging to the idea that this decolonization is only just beginning is a mistake. We must understand that historically there have been many international reflections and processes of reparation; we're not reinventing the wheel. Why should we go back and start all over again? We must understand that there is a fear of difference, a difference that, moreover, is not new: criticism of immigration has been among us at least since the 1990s, when the first migrant boats appeared. Many statements were written then that could be used by today's far right in their hate speech. We must undertake this exercise of understanding that there is an incredible fear of difference, but this is the world we have become. And we must also understand that both Catalans and Spaniards have also been besieged at some point; they are cultures that were also immigrants at some point.

His first term ends in September of next year. How does he plan for a second?

— I'm really looking forward to it. Right now, for me, the future is the 30th anniversary. But if they want me, I'll still be here.